New OTTB mare with intense anger under saddle...

[BarbellsAndBroncos]

Posting here because my new mare will be an eventer! So, my mare in a nutshell:

4yo (5 in Feb) unraced (but race-trained) TB mare. Too slow to race.
She had 3-4 months of pasture letdown after coming home from the track. I purchased her as an unstarted project and she has shown IMMENSE bravery, I think she’s going to be an incredible eventer.

The problem…

EVERY time I ask for a trot or canter, she rages. Not just a little protesting here or there, but legit ears suctioned back, head tossing, teeth clenched so hard they squeak… Raging. At the walk, she’s ears forward and happy as a clam. On trails she’s great (until we trot). She LOVES to jump (over the handful of fences I’ve experimented with).

I’m pretty sure I’ve ruled out pain. She was adjusted by the chiropractor (nothing abnormal), her teeth were recently done, and her track x-rays are clean. Have not x-rayed her back but she is not sore. She’s is sound on all fours.

She’s recently become aggressive with me while tacking, especially when I head near her rear end. She threatens to kick and nips as I walk by. One hind leg kind of pings up sharply when I pick it up to pick her feet (doesn’t seem like Shivers/Stringhalt).

I don’t think it’s a bit issue… I can completely throw away the reins and she behaves the same way. Tried her in a hackamore, behaved the same way. On the lunge line she kicks out multiple times at the canter.

Honestly, I’m at a loss. My trainer isn’t quite sure what’s up and I’m hesitant to spend a ton of money on xrays when she doesn’t come up lame. I keep reminding myself that she’s just a baby, but I’ve ridden my fair share of babies and never come across one like this! Phantom pain? I’d love to hear your thoughts!

[halt]

Sounds like a back problem to me. Sucking back at canter, bucking, aggression, all symptoms of pain in the back. If you haven’t x-rayed the back, I’d start there.

FWIW, my gelding also did not palpitate sore over his back but his rads of his back told a different story (Kissing Spine). I feel bad putting him through 2 years of training, being baffled by various “misbehaviors” under saddle, only to realize last fall the reason for his issues was severe back pain from KS. He was also never lame on a leg.

I had his back and neck injected and he has been… incredible. He suddenly isn’t a “hard” horse to ride anymore. I really wish I had done it sooner, or known sooner, but I was fixated on the “not lame” and “not palpitating” over his back…

[pologirl27]

This screams either some sort of reproductive system issue (pain in ovaries or the like) or ulcers. The aggression while tacking is what does it for me.

Has she been like this the entire time you’ve had her under saddle? Were you able to talk to anyone who rode her at the track?

[BarbellsAndBroncos]

@pologirl27 I haven’t spoken with anyone who rode her at the track but I do know they put her through a full Ulcergard treatment because they suspected ulcers. I also have her on daily SmartGI. She is definitely girthy but short of doing another Ulcergard treatment I’m not sure what else to do there But yes, she’s been like this since our first ride!

@halt Ah I’m so glad your boy is better after figuring that out! I think you may be right about x-raying the back… Need to rule that out.

[subk]

Pain. Classic pain symptoms. Keep digging. If she’s had a recent ulcer treatment you might want to scope her. If the ulsers have come back I’d be even more convinced she has some sort of other pain issues. Ulcers are very common in horses with chronic pain.

Mystery issues are the worst. Having gone through this type a thing multiple times before I’d probably suck up the $800 and go ahead and do a nuclear scintigraphy on her. I always regret that I don’t do them sooner, and I always would have spent less money on diagnosis if I had.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

Another who has had more than one horse not lame or palpating sore but who had KS. Also…known a few horses who were lame in 4 legs…but looked “sound” to their owners.

Does she resist going forward without a rider on her back?

[DunByMistake]

If I were you, I’d start with back x-rays. Her behavior strongly makes me think back pain.

But as the owner of a horse with a pretty sensitive GI tract and ulcer prone, I’ll also add. My horse becomes extremely reluctant to go forward when something is up with his guts. Ulcers are nasty but in my experience, treating with omeprazole has a pretty major positive effect within a short time. It can wreak havoc on their hind guts though. I think a lot of people are misdiagnosing hindgut acidosis as ulcers - which is fair, there are a lot of common symptoms. My horse gets relucant to go forward, (god help you when you slide your leg back for canter) and tense about being tacked up. Kicking is another major signal for him - when his tummy is upset, he will kick on the ground. And just overall miserable and grumpy. He’s on a locally made version of Equishure and it works really well for him. He’ll probably be on it forever.

If I were you, my game plan would be:

• back x ray
• if nothing shows up, start hindgut supplement
• no improvements in a couple weeks, repro exam.

I would also recommend evaluating saddle fit but if she is exhibiting same behavior on lunge, it appears that pain exists regardless of saddle.

Good luck! It’s so frustrating trying to figure out what’s wrong and I have spent a lot of time wishing my horse could talk. Let us know what you find out.

[findeight]

Aggression in horses is not the same as human anger, horses don’t initiate attacks, they either defend themselves ( or their babies) or run away. When you anthromorphize and attribute human cognitive abilities and emotions to animals, it can keep you from seeing and understanding the real problem and taking steps to correct it.

You mare is reacting in self defense to avoid pain. She’s trying to tell you something, not rage against you, listen.

From what you describe, it occurs when you ask her to go forward and push from behind which flexes the spine and the rear end plus weighting the rear end joints. I bet she’s had ulcer trouble if she’s hurting. She could also be sore in both front feet-they won’t limp if both hurt…they just won’t want to go forward,

The fact she’s not obviously lame rules out only a small percentage of things that can be wrong, especially in the neck, spine and back end. How old are the track x rays, are they, or the disc, date stamped? What was x rayed? Do you currently have those x rays in your possession? How long did she live and work at the track without starting a race? She was somewhere for 4 years, do you know her former owners well or did you buy thru a dealer or from somebody who got her from one?

These answers can help pinpoint the source. Offhand, besides what has been mentioned, seen this behavior with navicular and DDFT type injuries in front and double suspensory issues behind. None of those looked lame. Won’t even get into compensatory issues.

Sometimes turning detective can narrow the possibilities, especially if you can’t afford the full workup that, honestly, is the best option. Often the asnwers are in the horse’s history.

[frugalannie]

Hmmm. She sounds like me when my sciatica is acting up.

Along with ruling out ulcers, I’d second having saddle fit checked.

If you want to rule out pain, you could try a couple of days of oral bute or banamine (with your vet’s OK) to see if behavior improves. You might have to give oral gastroguard to make sure you’re not exacerbating ulcers, but discuss with vet.

And good luck. It sounds as if she will be lovely if you can solve this.

[mg]

I would try treating with Sucralfate for hindgut ulcers. Supplements aren’t going to do much if she’s already developed full blown ulcers there.

[halt]

re: Bute test

For what it is worth, my gelding did not change his behavior much on a bute trial, and then later, didn’t change too much on previcox either. It’s my opinion that with his kissing spine, neither reduced the inflammation enough where it made much a difference. YMMV.

I do think bute tests have their place but just wanted to say they don’t always mean something especially if the issue is systemic/body-wide like KS and neck issues can be.

[00Jumper]

We did a robaxin trial on our OTTB that was having similar issues, which we discovered was rooted in back pain - he was like a new horse. The bute trial was pretty inconclusive. Maybe he was better, maybe not really. The robaxin though was definitely an improvement. I’d check with your vet about back xrays and maybe trying something like that - even if her xrays check out she could be having muscle pain from an old injury or etc. that really bothers her.

[Winding_Down]

Rule out pain with a really good vet and with the below. Given her reaction, it could be a rear end issue.

How is she on the lunge? If it were me, I would see how she goes on the lunge and if she is fine, I would add weight to her back (google some of the techniques for adding weight; I have some clever options as well) and see how she goes then.

One big potential problem is that you do not want this behavior to become ingrained. So if it is pain, then that needs to go away asap. Otherwise, even without pain, she could still be aggressive.

If all else is ruled out, and this is simple dominant behavior, then I would work with her to establish your role as leader. This would include a lot of ground work as well as routine corrections to any of her dominant behaviors. That would take a book to explain… but there are so many online resources.

[BarbellsAndBroncos]

This is why I love COTH so much Thank you all for your advice. I’m scheduling a back x-ray today and I think we will go from there depending on if it’s back related and/or ulcer related. She does act out on the lunge line as well, in addition to channeling a freight train (possibly due to being unbalanced/out of shape). She wasn’t happy by any means the first couple of times I rode her, but it has undoubtedly deteriorated significantly since a month or so ago.

Y’all are awesome. She’s just a baby so I definitely want to figure this out and get her pain-free as quickly as possible. I will keep everyone posted!

[halt]

@BarbellsAndBroncos

This is why I love COTH so much Thank you all for your advice. I’m scheduling a back x-ray today and I think we will go from there depending on if it’s back related and/or ulcer related. She does act out on the lunge line as well, in addition to channeling a freight train (possibly due to being unbalanced/out of shape). She wasn’t happy by any means the first couple of times I rode her, but it has undoubtedly deteriorated significantly since a month or so ago.

Y’all are awesome. She’s just a baby so I definitely want to figure this out and get her pain-free as quickly as possible. I will keep everyone posted!

Good luck! I hope that you and vet can get to the bottom of this ASAP. Feel free to PM me if you have any questions about what we’ve done with my gelding with KS. There’s a thread about it somewhere, and I know another poster has a thread about her TB gelding with KS as well.

[findeight]

Are you hauling her to a clinic or trying to do it with a portable machine at the barn? Clinic generally will get better imaging results and they can immediately do other tests as indicated by the rads since they have everything right there. I know it costs but it’s cheaper then having to come back and reshoot or coming up inconclusive due to the limitations of portable equipment in a farm setting.

Will you keep us updated?

[Jealoushe]

Also check the mouth, as in x rays. Some things can be laying under the surface. But yes, classic pain. Hope you can figure it out.

[midstride]

@pologirl27

This screams either some sort of reproductive system issue (pain in ovaries or the like) or ulcers. The aggression while tacking is what does it for me.

Has she been like this the entire time you’ve had her under saddle? Were you able to talk to anyone who rode her at the track?

Ditto

[NancyM]

What are you feeding her? I ask because I have 2 TB mares who can NOT stand high levels of protein in their diet. My other horses do not get these symptoms, do not have this problem. These mares get gut pain, symptoms similar to what you describe, that looks like ulcers, but are not ulcers. If you are feeding a high protein diet (15% to 18%), try dropping the protein down to about 10%. No alfalfa, use a low protein grass hay. Either no grain, or low protein grain. Mineral source is OK, but check that whatever mineral supplement you use does not have anything that also has a protein source. Vets could not diagnose this problem when I asked for help, just shrugged. It is so simple, cheap, and easy to try. I’d try it first. Results are fast, within a few days or a week if this is the problem. Good luck.

[pony_grandma]

I had a full exam done on a young mare. It’s like the lost sock, in the last place you look ;). She had an engorged ovary - it looked like snow on a 1950’s TV. Extremely painful. It was in the fall and did self clear itself by spring.