New OTTB mare with intense anger under saddle...

I’d definitely check saddle fit – my mare’s saddle had been fit to her by two different fitters, and objectively passed every test, and yet, she was nasty at the canter, especially if asked to stride out. After she bucked me off, and I broke my knee, I sent her to a pro to stay in work while I was recovering. He wasn’t having issues with her in her dressage saddle, which was made to fit her, but the day he tried the jump saddle, her nasty sister was back.

We finally determined that it was pinching her shoulders when she would stride out, even though it didn’t seem like it would hit there. Sold it, and had one shipped in that fits like the dressage saddle and she’s a different horse.

We missed this issue for a while because she’d also had stifle surgery, and her crankiness showed up on the lunge and under saddle. Her stifles weren’t too reactive to a lameness exam, but when we xrayed, she had OCD lesions. She had surgery, and then the saddle issues cropped up. We kept thinking she was reactive because cantering had been hard for so long because of the stifles. The hard thing for me now is that even though the stifle issues are gone, and her saddle fits like a dream, she’s still reactive in the canter and anticipates that it will hurt.

In short, I let it go on far too long – keep digging on your mare and I bet you will find what it is! Good luck and keep us updated!

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Thank you all!!!

One thing I forgot to mention was that when our chiro adjusted her, she checked ulcer trigger points (she definitely knows her stuff, my last OTTB mare who had ulcers flared up when she probed), and this mare didn’t react at all.

She is currently on 2qts of Strategy, 1 cup of vegetable oil, and her smartpaks twice a day in addition to pasture. She’s stalled during the day right now.

I hadn’t even considered repro issues… I will be hauling her into the University clinic regardless, so I’m sure they will have some of the best equipment in the area! I swear… I live and breathe OTTBs, but man are they money pits :lol:

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If she still acts out on the lunge with NO tack…that usually sends me more in the direction of ulcers and against KS. But a couple of back X-rays are not expensive and good to have.

Just my $.02 about ulcers. My horse didn’t exhibit the usual symptoms. He gets adjusted on a monthly basis and never reacted at the ulcer pressure points. He was never girthy and never went off his feed. I tested him twice with the fecal Succeed test over the course of 6 months and those came back negative.
I recently tested him again because it just seemed like his tummy hurt and it finally came back positive. Treated him with Ulcerguard and Succeed for a month and he has responded incredibly well to treatment. I am in the process of tapering him and also have added Purina Outlast to his diet based on my vets recommendation. So far so good :slight_smile: He is so much more relaxed and non-reactive. Lesson learned on the Succeed test, next time if I suspect ulcers I’ll just start an Ulcerguard treatment.
He never got naughty on the lunge line but would have naughty moments under saddle especially at the canter. Likely his stomach acid would slosh around at the canter and irritate his stomach and any existing ulcers.

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Great news you are taking her to a clinic. We never know what those asking questions can afford to do or what even possible for them to have done within a reasonable trailer ride so try to cover all bases. It might help if you can lunge her or even get on her at the clinic, savvy vet starts with observation of the problem.

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@findeight that’s an excellent idea, I’ll see if this is possible! They have an indoor so I don’t see why not.

I made her an appointment for November 3rd to do radiographs of her back and to do a repro exam, so hopefully we will cover all bases! If nothing turns up there, next step will be scoping.

Thank you all <3

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I would treat as ulcers - Ulcerguard or Abler’s “pop rocks”, and sucralfate, just because if that’s the problem, you’ll likely see a difference really quickly. Also, if they’re ulcer prone (2 of mine are) then you know and, after treatment is done, you use preventative measures when stress hits (so omeprazole or ranitidine for a few days around trailering, new environment, herd changes, etc.).

I’m not sure if stomach vs hind gut issues show up in the same pressure points, but the way you’re describing yours is the way my young mare was when I got her–almost flinching when I would even move towards her hind end, very likely to kick, cantering involved lots of up and down and kicking out, but didn’t present as girthy or off her feed (in fact, she’s an extremely easy keeper for a TB). She is also sensitive to saddle fit, and gets Depo part of the year as she has intense heats (where she’s not witchy but doesn’t want to move), but we had to resolve the ulcers before we could even figure out what we were dealing with. Though sensitive, she’s now a fun, laid-back, sensible horse with lovely gaits.

Not to say your plan is bad–all good things to look into. Just that it’s pretty easy to figure out if it’s ulcers (usually…) and that, IME, gastro issues tend to flare in the fall. And if she’s come off the track and is in a new environment, you’ve got a giant ulcer trigger.

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Honestly, I’m at a loss. My trainer isn’t quite sure what’s up and I’m hesitant to spend a ton of money on xrays when she doesn’t come up lame. I keep reminding myself that she’s just a baby, but I’ve ridden my fair share of babies and never come across one like this! Phantom pain? I’d love to hear your thoughts!

In addition to the other suggestions I’ve read on your thread so far, my thoughts are, Get a new trainer! A GOOD trainer won’t stop at “I’m not sure” but will advise you to get the vet in to check your mare out thoroughly. You want a trainer who knows more than you do – that’s why we train with them! – and with a horse there’s almost always a lot spending of a lot money, on X-rays and lots of other things.

I hope she gets diagnosed and treated soon! :slight_smile:

And BTW, welcome to COTH!

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I agree with everyone who suggested ulcers, but I also want to second whoever said it could be a sign of navicular or DDFT. My guy was exactly as you describe your mare, pinning his ears and gnashing his teeth, sometimes even slamming to a stop and rearing when asked to canter. I assumed he was just barn sour and behind my leg (which he was, but not to that extent). Did a bone scan and found out he’d done his DDFT. Horses have all kinds of ways to tell us they’re in pain, it’s just a not so fun (or inexpensive) process to figure out why.

Looking forward to hearing an update after your appointment!

might as well x ray the head too, then you will have ruled out all possibilities.

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Thank you all! I definitely think ulcers are a possibility. She is escalating quickly. Today she reared (HIGH) twice with me on her, which she has never done before. Not riding her again until after Friday…

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Such drama on her part screams that something is really wrong. Rather then restrict the visit to back x rays and a repro exam, why not just let them see her moving on the lunge (no way Id get on her) and let them investigate what they see, that might involve looking lower down with blocks and ultrasound. Hate to see you haul home with just inconclusive spine x rays and a normal repro exam and no improvement in behavior.

Good lameness vet can see very subtle things in horses 99% of others think are sound. Some of those things are far more common then repro irregularities or spinal issues. And anything that hurts is going to potentially cause ulcers, curing the ulcers is short lived if the pain that aggravates them doesn’t go away.

Look forward to next weeks update.

Oh, on the Bute test discussed earlier? That is often a basic go to suggestion since everybody can get a few Bute tablets pretty easy and other options may not be readily at hand in many barns or as easy to administer. Bute’s cheap too, never know how much a poster can spend. It’s a place to start.

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I would do a full body scan, nuclear scintigraphy.

In the meantime, you can start her on Nexium immediately. Just get to any pharmacy/Walmart/Target/supermarket and start her tomorrow. Can’t hurt and it sure as heck can help.

Is there an update on this mare?

A friend of mine had a full physical work up on her OTTB mare just off the track, who exhibited the same kinds of behavior. All came back fine - at their recommendation, she put her on Focus, from the people who make MagRestore. A WORLD of difference in only a few days. From crazy going into the canter, to nice soft transitions, etc. Might be worth a try.

Hey everyone, sorry for being MIA! Results are in-- she does have kissing spine as I feared. A relatively mild case (grades 1 and 2 in 3-4 spots). Clinician suggested starting with injections. If those work, maintain 1-2 times per year. If they don’t work, then she would be a surgical candidate.

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Thanks for the update. Another one for the books, “aggression under saddle” = kissing spine… Seems quite common. Sorry you are dealing with it.

I’m on the KS rehab route too. I suggest contacting, or having your vet contact, Dr Newton about the injection route and rehab plan. He is very open about his protocol and I have seen in person the changes it has made to a horse. My own horse did not go through his protocol because we want to see if regular rehab works first as his is very mild and we think most of his issues stems from the neck, but it will be a “next step” down the road if this management is not enough.

Feel free to PM me if you want, I’d be happy to share what I have been doing with my gelding… It has made a huge difference.

Take some time to also learn some stretches for your horse. Takes no time out of your day and IMHO makes them less “cold backed” before you get on. I do the following in no particular order before I get on but after the saddle is on: reinback 5 steps, 3x. Belly lift 3x. Carrot stretches to shoulder 3x for 3 seconds. Carrot stretch to hip/flank 3x for 3 seconds. Jog in hand, 2 laps, before getting on. HUGE difference in tightness over his back when I do this.

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Sorry to hear about the Kissing Spines. I just wanted to add that Strategy is more carby than a lot of grains. With guidance from your vet it could be that another grain like Triple Crown Senior, Wellness, etc. may be a better fit for providing low NSC calories.

For what it is worth, I am not a believer in “ulcer trigger points”. As someone with acute GI issues there are days when certain pokes will illicit a massive reaction and other days when it won’t but the issues are still there. I have seen horses with “negative” reactions to trigger points transform with ulcer treatment including a precious little OTTB mare I am helping right now. She went from a hardish keeper to an easy keeper post treatment and was much less reactive.

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Bummer about the KS but it is something that is typically very manageable with most horses. She may also have ulcers as a secondary reaction to dealing with pain from the KS. So not a bad idea to keep treating the ulcers and then keep her on a supplement like Outlast (from Purina…new product that came out this year but has great science behind it).

I’ve had a few horses with KS…sometimes you can manage it with injections. Shockwave helps others. I did the newer less invasive surgery on one horse. It’s great that she is a candidate as not all are. Another big factor is getting them stronger. Light lunging in a Pessoa system, long lining or lunging with a De Gogue can really be beneficial to build up back muscles. The De Gogue is probably the easiest to use on a greener horse…especially if you do not have long lining experience.
https://www.smartpakequine.com/pt/camelot-de-gogue-4979?utm_source=cpc&utm_medium=google&utm_content=shopping&utm_campaign=nb_shopping_tes&utm_term=14979&gclid=EAIaIQobChMInuD4u9u-1wIV2kwNCh0S4A4lEAQYASABEgK2g_D_BwE

Good luck!