[QUOTE=canyonoak;4655915]
I do not think there have been too many scientific studies of horse biomechanics other than Dr. Clayton’s and so far she has not been able to design one that shows that rollkur is harmful.[/QUOTE]
Glad to hear she is actively researching it.
[QUOTE=canyonoak;4655915]
I do not think there have been too many scientific studies of horse biomechanics other than Dr. Clayton’s and so far she has not been able to design one that shows that rollkur is harmful…[/QUOTE]
absolutely untrue. There are many different studies going on or completed on various aspects of how rollkur might affect the horse (even if they are not called “study of rollkur”) . and many other study the bio mechanics of the horse besides clayton.
and, btw: i still would like to know about the so called faked scandic film - how was it done, by whom? and who did the research into it being edited?
Here is the website for the vet institute which did the study. http://www.pferdewissenschaften.at/NeustadtDosse_englisch.htm
http://www.ivis.org/proceedings/iceep/2006/session6.pdf
go to page 22 if you want to get to rollkur, although many of the papers make for interesting reading
http://www.animalsandsociety.org/assets/library/114_jaws09015.pdf
these are all in peer-reviewed publications
[QUOTE=canyonoak;4656165]
http://www.animalsandsociety.org/assets/library/114_jaws09015.pdf
these are all in peer-reviewed publications[/QUOTE]
Little DA action here…
[I]"However, the only parameter of stress, which was measured, was heart rate variability, where the elite horses were found to “show less stress” 30 minutes after their workout, once they had been groomed and put back in their stables. The abstract does not specify how the recreational horses were trained, aside from a general statement that rollkur as a training tool for such horses “is not common.”
Visser notes in her report to the Dutch Ministry of Agriculture that: “Although this study did use HRV (heart rate variability, ed.) as a physiological stress parameter, it did not include behavioural observations. Moreover, in this experiment, HRV was measured 30 – 45 minutes after the training exercise after the horses had been washed and groomed. The HRV reported might have reflected these latter handling procedures instead of (or as well as) the training technique. Another limitation of this experimental design is that the riders were not blind to the treatments. Furthermore, in the paper it is claimed that “pain” was measured, but we are not able to draw the same conclusions from the presented data.”"[/I]
I would certainly expect GP-level horses to possess a greater level of fitness than recreational-ridden horses, so I would hope that their heart rate was lower overall and in particular that it would decrease quicker 30-45min after the training exercise than that of the REC horses.
Where is the correlation between pain and heart rate? Why were hormone levels not considered? Or behavioural factors?
Lastly, could this not simply prove that GP-level horses trained in Rolkur have lowered ‘stress’ as a result of being previously conditioned to such a position? A horse ‘desensitized’ to a method is going to exhibit less stress. Particularly when considering the ‘control’ horses (REC) were being trained in basic dressage, in a discipline new to them (?); their stress levels would have increased in learning.
[QUOTE=naturalequus;4656314]
Lastly, could this not simply prove that GP-level horses trained in Rolkur have lowered ‘stress’ as a result of being previously conditioned to such a position? A horse ‘desensitized’ to a method is going to exhibit less stress. Particularly when considering the ‘control’ horses (REC) were being trained in basic dressage, in a discipline new to them (?); their stress levels would have increased in learning.[/QUOTE]
But that is exactly what dressage/training is all about. Like the German study showed that horses have to get used to transport.
[QUOTE=mbm;4653618]
from TOB:
can someone translate the german if there is more than what is posted above?
many thanks.[/QUOTE]
This is not originally from TOB, but from Theo’s website.
What would be the legal basis for such a suit, a tort? Is Ulf Walz going to start representing wronged dressage horses all over the world now? :lol:
maybe they just don’t have the same sense of humor as the rider in question who was known to have been JOKING when she proposed its elimination?
[QUOTE=DQtrainer;4656381]
This is not originally from TOB, but from Theo’s website.[/QUOTE]
no, it is from TOB. I copied it directly from there.
[QUOTE=DQtrainer;4656347]
But that is exactly what dressage/training is all about. Like the German study showed that horses have to get used to transport.[/QUOTE]
Yes, but in this case, maybe it is not a good thing. Also, my primary point in all this was that the study really shows no conclusive evidence that the horses worked in the RK frame were not in pain/discomfort while working for such extended periods of time, or that such a frame does not cause long-term physical damage to the horse (which may or may not be visible to the naked eye).
[QUOTE=mbm;4656668]
no, it is from TOB. I copied it directly from there.[/QUOTE]
It was on Theo’s website two days earlier and he did the translation from German to English. You can check this if you want. :yes:
It was also posted on the Cyberhorse BB 1/17/10
http://forum.cyberhorse.com.au/forums/showthread.php?t=67766
(Is Cyberhorse Theo’s site?)
New study on Rollkur
Not meant to start another Rollkur thread. Just thought I’d post it for anyone who is interested.
New study on Rollkur
A newly developed endoscope makes it possible to monitor the respiratory system of horses in movement which so far has only been possible if the horse was standing still. Researchers from the Graf-Lehndorff Institute have been able to investigate the impact of Rollkur on horses. For this study, they longed 16 horses: first with long side reins, then with extremely short ones so that the horses had to move in Rollkur position.
Results: because of the ‘rolled up’ neck the horses had problems breathing, the respiratory tracks narrowed, the pulse rate increased. A thermo graphical camera, which was used at the same time as the endoscope, researchers also showed that Rollkur horses tensed up, the blood circulation changed, and horses hollowed their backs. All in all the head of the Graf-Lehndorff-Institute, Professor Christian Aurich, concludes that Rollkur leads to an “unphysiological strain which should have no place in any training of horses”.
I hope the translation is ok. This is the link to the original version (in German). http://www.dressur-studien.de/index…-den-atem.html
A very popular German horse magazine will be publishing a more detailed article on this study next week.
Does it all matter where the article originated? Is the information or validity (or lack thereof) changed by its original source? Seems rather futile to catfight about the originations of an article rather than using the time to productively debate and offer up points concerning the study in question, or other studies.
Last night the opportunity arose to share a number of pro- and anti-rollkur/hyperflexion pictures and videos with a range of people: a student, a project manager, an engineer, a lawyer and a chef. I told them that this particular exercise has aroused some controversy and discussion in the dressage community, and that as yet there seems to be no convincing way to prove its effects on the horse.
All of them wanted to know whether live action thermographic imagery collection has been undertaken.
My vet has used thermography to locate and diagnose a lameness on one of my ponies, but in truth this had not occurred to me in considering rk/hf.
Googling for such a study turned up some interesting stuff, but thus far no thermographic images of a horse in hf.
Has anyone seen such studies? Can you point me to them?
Is thermography possible in a moving horse or is it limited to static subjects?
[QUOTE=fburton;4657197]
Is thermography possible in a moving horse or is it limited to static subjects?[/QUOTE]
My vet’s equipment is stationary, so he was only able to thermograph a limited range of motion. There was motion on the screen, however, which showed the damage deep in a muscle of the hindquarters as it transited through its range of movement (we produced the movement by flexing the leg forward and back).
I have seen thermographic equipment used to record moving animals in the wild, and of course the military uses it in the field. So I suspect it can be used in broader motion, but I don’t know for certain. Hopefully someone does.
Thanks, MySparrow. I too would be interested to know whether thermography has been applied to this issue.
[QUOTE=canyonoak;4656165]
http://www.animalsandsociety.org/assets/library/114_jaws09015.pdf
these are all in peer-reviewed publications[/QUOTE]
Interesting articles in this one. I passed it along to my daughter, a muscian studying ethnomusicality and horses. Particularly interesting read on “moral panic” and crimes against animals.
Thanks for the link!
[QUOTE=fburton;4657224]
Thanks, MySparrow. I too would be interested to know whether thermography has been applied to this issue.[/QUOTE]
I’ll keep looking, and ask my vet. I hope someone here will have more information.
