New study on the effects of Rollkur .....

[fburton]

[QUOTE=canyonoak;4656165]
http://www.animalsandsociety.org/assets/library/114_jaws09015.pdf

these are all in peer-reviewed publications[/QUOTE]
I think the paper is interesting, but limited - and to be fair the author does acknowledge certain limitations of the study. As far as I can tell, the methods are fine. However, I would like to have seen heart-rate measurements done during the training session to see whether there were any significant changes going into and out of RK. Even without using new techniques for factoring out the contribution of exercise to heart rate, a comparison between RK and non-RK periods could have been done if the overall level of exercise was the same for both. As has been pointed out already, the difference in HRV after the session could be due entirely to the difference in training regime - it could have nothing to do with RK. So I think the author’s conclusion is unjustified. Still, she does argue for further work to be done, which I agree with.

Journal of Applied Animal Welfare Science is indeed a peer-reviewed journal, though not in quite the same way as it is for most science journals (at least, not any journal I have submitted to or reviewed for). In the case of JAAWS, manuscripts are reviewed by a limited board of editors, rather than being sent to other scientists working in the same or closely related field. It isn’t clear how many of those editors would be familiar with the subject being studied here. That wouldn’t stop them doing a reasonable of reviewing the paper, but it might not be as incisive as one from someone who has worked with horses and/or done HRV measurements themself.

I don’t mean to damn the article - I think it is a useful addition to the literature. One just has to be careful not to assign it too much weight by itself.

[ise]

Good God people - this study was just done and saying it was limited isn’t relevant - IT’S A START.

And Geneva - Anky’s horses almost CAN’T halt - so it’s NO JOKE - saw it with my own PEEPERS.

For those who feel Rolkur is fine - GREAT - just tell SELLERS when you are looking for a horse!!

[Bluey]

In science, generally, the ideal position to hold a theory as true is to have several properly run studies, the more the better, for, against, some incidentally related and over time.
Then have a study, or more, that give an overview of those studies AND weight where the proof seems to lay, with the now hopefully considerable data at hand.

I don’t think we are there with RK yet to make proclamations for or against it.

[naturalequus]

[QUOTE=MySparrow;4657140]
Last night the opportunity arose to share a number of pro- and anti-rollkur/hyperflexion pictures and videos with a range of people: a student, a project manager, an engineer, a lawyer and a chef. I told them that this particular exercise has aroused some controversy and discussion in the dressage community, and that as yet there seems to be no convincing way to prove its effects on the horse.

All of them wanted to know whether live action thermographic imagery collection has been undertaken.

My vet has used thermography to locate and diagnose a lameness on one of my ponies, but in truth this had not occurred to me in considering rk/hf.

Googling for such a study turned up some interesting stuff, but thus far no thermographic images of a horse in hf.

Has anyone seen such studies? Can you point me to them?[/QUOTE]

I have been wondering the same. I thought I could recall one study where thermographic images were used however I cannot seem to find the study and can only recall thinking it lacked validity (to an extent) and that there was much progression to be made yet in that area. I think it is a good idea if we can develop such a testing method, if it has not already been developed (?).

[fburton]

[QUOTE=Bluey;4657354]
In science, generally, the ideal position to hold a theory as true is to have several properly run studies, the more the better, for, against, some incidentally related and over time.
Then have a study, or more, that give an overview of those studies AND weight where the proof seems to lay, with the now hopefully considerable data at hand.

I don’t think we are there with RK yet to make proclamations for or against it.[/QUOTE]
I agree! :yes:

[Geneva]

@ise@ssl

And Geneva - Anky’s horses almost CAN’T halt - so it’s NO JOKE - saw it with my own PEEPERS.

maybe read more carefully and think a little more critically. Everyone KNOWS she has had huge trouble with the halt. DUH. That’s WHY she made the JOKE to remove it from the test. Sans halting trouble, there would be NO reason to make a JOKE about it. Get it? Someone with an agenda rewrote history that she actually, seriously, proposed this, and the sheeples ran with it, morphing into an internet legend for the clueless. :lol:

@Geneva

[quote=ise@ssl]And to my knowledge I have never in the history of Dressage heard of any other rider wanting to eliminate the HALT in any FEI test.

maybe they just don’t have the same sense of humor as the rider in question who was known to have been JOKING when she proposed its elimination?
[/quote]

[fburton]

[QUOTE=Geneva;4657687]
Everyone KNOWS she has had huge trouble with the halt.[/QUOTE]
Does she know why? What reasons have been put forward to explain it?

[Geneva]

I don’t know, I am not even a fan! I just hate gossipy internet mythology.

[egontoast]

maybe read more carefully and think a little more critically. Everyone KNOWS she has had huge trouble with the halt. DUH. That’s WHY she made the JOKE to remove it from the test. Sans halting trouble, there would be NO reason to make a JOKE about it. Get it? Someone with an agenda rewrote history that she actually, seriously, proposed this, and the sheeples ran with it, morphing into an internet legend for the clueless. :lol:

Yes but some people would rather run with the other thing because it fits with what they already believe. Insert rolly eyes.

[naturalequus]

This is just my personal opinion (and a bit off-topic, really), however taking a look at how she stops her reining horses could allow for a pretty good (IMO) explanation as to why she has trouble with the halt in dressage (and she is not entirely new to reining horses). Yes, the two disciplines cross over - I personally equate reining to the ‘dressage of the western world’.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azIWYbmsiII&feature=related
0:10
0:44
1:32
2:25
Each time she asks the horse for a halt, she tenses her back, sets her feet out in front of her, braces, and asks for the halt up front at the bit in lieu of asking for it with her body. I can assure you horses of this caliber do not need the rein (or should not - if they do, it should be used after the seat, but by this horse’s look of irritation I am guessing seat would have sufficed). She should have a longer rein throughout (she is not trusting the horse, so to give the horse the room it would otherwise demand, she props her hand high over the horse’s neck, instead of simply giving the horse more rein and dropping her hand back by the horn - she is riding like a barrel rider) and for the halt she should be rounding her own back and dropping her rounded tailbone into the saddle, relaxing her entire body. She is so tense you even see her butt bump the saddle during the stop, due to the tense back. Maybe the horse does not have sliding shoes on, but it should have been able to give a better stop had the halt been asked for correctly.

I understand this is reining and not dressage, however IME people often ride very similarly (ask for movements using the same cues, etc) in whatever discipline - they carry over the same habits and patterns.

If Anky is already riding her dressage horses heavy-handed, then is trying to ask for a halt up front when they are already tense, being tense herself, they are unlikely to be all that responsive.

Just throwing it out there - not meaning to criticise Anky (not going to get into any of that on this board, my flame suit is not sufficiently strong), just intending to perhaps offer a reason and some insight as to why she is having difficulties with her halts on her dressage horses. If it carries over to more than one horse, it becomes especially obvious that it is a rider-flaw over a horse-flaw.

[EquiMaster]

Just throwing it out there - not meaning to criticise Anky (not going to get into any of that on this board, my flame suit is not sufficiently strong), just intending to perhaps offer a reason and some insight as to why she is having difficulties with her halts on her dressage horses. If it carries over to more than one horse, it becomes especially obvious that it is a rider-flaw over a horse-flaw.

Drawing conclusions without any background information or knowledge : :lol::lol:

List of honour

Olympic Games:
1988: 26th, Prisco / 5th with team
1992: 4th, Gestion Bonfire / Silver with team
1996: Silver, Gestion Bonfire / Silver with team
2000: Gold, Gestion Bonfire / Silver with team
2004: Gold, Gestion Salinero / 4th with team
2008: Gold, I.P.S Salinero / Silver with team

World Championships:
1990: 23rd, Prisco
1994: Gold Medal, Gestion Bonfire / Silver with team
1998: Silver Medal, Gestion Bonfire / Silver with team
2002: 11th, Gestion Krack C / 5th with team
2006: Gold and silver medal, Keltec Salinero / Silver with team

European Championships:
1989: 22nd, Prisco, 5th with team
1991: 5th, Gestion Bonfire, Bronze with team
1995: Silver, Gestion Bonfire, Silver with team
1997: Silver, Gestion Bonfire, Silver with team
1999: Gold, Gestion Bonfire, Silver with team
2005: Gold, Keltec Salinero, Silver with team
2007: Gold, Keltec Salinero, Gold with team
2009: Bronze, Salinero / Gold with team

Worldcup Finals:
1989: 7th, Prisco
1990: 9th, Prisco
1993: 9th, Gestion Cocktail
1995: 1st, Gestion Bonfire
1996: 1st, Gestion Bonfire
1997: 1st, Gestion Bonfire
1998: 2nd, Gestion Bonfire
1999: 1st, Gestion Bonfire
2000: 1st, Gestion Bonfire
2004: 1st, Gestion Salinero
2005: 1st, Keltec Salinero
2006: 1st, Keltec Salinero
2008: 1st, I.P.S Salinero
2009: 3rd, I.P.S Painted Black

World Championships for Young Horses:
1999: Silver, Ictenos
2003: Silver, Painted Black

Dutch Championships:
1990: 1st, Prisco
1991: 1st, Gestion Bonfire
1992: 1st, Gestion Bonfire
1993: 1st, Gestion Bonfire
1994: 1st, Gestion Bonfire
1995: 1st, Gestion Bonfire
1996: 1st, Gestion Bonfire
1997: 1st, Gestion Bonfire
1998: 1st, Gestion Bonfire
2000: 1st, Gestion Bonfire
2002: 3rd, Gestion Idool
2003: 1st, Gestion Salinero
2004: 2nd, Gestion Krack C
2005: 1st, Keltec Salinero
2006: 3rd, IPS Krack C
2007: 1st, Keltec Salinero
2008: 2nd, I.P.S Painted Black
2009: 2nd, I.P.S Salinero

KNHS Dutch Indoor championships Grand Prix:
2006: 1st, I.P.S Krack C
2008: 1st, I.P.S Painted Black

Dutch championships small tour:
1995: 1st, TCN Partout
1996: 1st, Gere
1997: 1st, Gestion Idool
1999: 1st, Gestion Joker
2001: 1st, Gestion Krack C
2002: 2nd, Gestion Salinero
2005: 1st, IPS Painted Black

Titles of honor:
1994: Athlete of the Year
1993: Rider of the Year
1994: Rider of the Year
1995: Rider of the Year
1996: Rider of the Year
1998: Rider of the Year
2000: Rider of the Century
2001: Rider of the Year
2004: Rider of the Year

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=naturalequus;4657994]
This is just my personal opinion (and a bit off-topic, really), however taking a look at how she stops her reining horses allows for a pretty good (IMO) explanation as to why she has trouble with the halt in dressage (and she is not new to reining horses). Yes, the two disciplines cross over - I personally equate reigning to the ‘dressage of the western world’.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azIWYbmsiII&feature=related
0:10
0:44
1:32
2:25
Each time she asks the horse for a halt, she tenses her back, sets her feet out in front of her, braces, and asks for the halt up front at the bit in lieu of asking for it with her body. I can assure you horses of this caliber do not need the rein (or should not - if they do, it should be used after the seat, but by this horse’s look of irritation I am guessing seat would have sufficed). She should have a longer rein throughout (she is not trusting the horse, so to give the horse the room it would otherwise demand, she props her hand high over the horse’s neck, instead of simply giving the horse more rein and dropping her hand back by the horn - she is riding like a barrel rider) and for the halt she should be rounding her own back and dropping her rounded tailbone into the saddle, relaxing her entire body. She is so tense you even see her butt bump the saddle during the stop, due to the tense back. Maybe the horse does not have sliding shoes on, but it should have been able to give a better stop had the halt been asked for correctly.

I understand this is reining and not dressage, however IME people often ride very similarly (ask for movements using the same cues, etc) in whatever discipline - they carry over the same habits and patterns.

If Anky is already riding her dressage horses heavy-handed, then is trying to ask for a halt up front when they are already tense, being tense herself, they are unlikely to be all that responsive.

Just throwing it out there - not meaning to criticise Anky (not going to get into any of that on this board, my flame suit is not sufficiently strong), just intending to perhaps offer a reason and some insight as to why she is having difficulties with her halts on her dressage horses. If it carries over to more than one horse, it becomes especially obvious that it is a rider-flaw over a horse-flaw.[/QUOTE]

Didn’t you read the note to that video?

"UNLESS YOU ARE MS. VAN GRUNSVEN’S EQUAL OR SUPERIOR, I SUGGEST THAT YOU DON’T INSULT HER RIDING. It’s extremely irritating that so many have so little respect for such a talented and accomplished r… "

Yes, Anky is a beginner reiner, she knows it, she is learning, has been riding reining horses three years as time permitted, which was little.

Reining well takes long, not many can do it well, consistently, on a horse they don’t get to train with much.
Anky did say that, if she didn’t find time to learn more in six months, then she would reevaluate if she wanted to keep on with reining.

Reining looks easy, it is not and some of what you say, well, I don’t think you have been reining much either, have you?

I really wish people would listen and learn before being too critical of others already at the top.

Reining or dressage are not as easy as it seems and no one is riding perfectly evey step and no horse is performing perfectly every step.
That is why all keep learning during a lifetime and the more they know, the more they know how little they really know.:yes:

[egontoast]

That is why all keep learning during a lifetime and the more they know, the more they know how little they really know

Yes. This had been said often but it is very true and that is why the very best horse people are such humble people.

Of course, that’s just an opinion and I’m sure those that think they know it all have plenty of fans as well.

.

[naturalequus]

[QUOTE=Bluey;4658416]
Didn’t you read the note to that video?

"UNLESS YOU ARE MS. VAN GRUNSVEN’S EQUAL OR SUPERIOR, I SUGGEST THAT YOU DON’T INSULT HER RIDING. It’s extremely irritating that so many have so little respect for such a talented and accomplished r… "

Yes, Anky is a beginner reiner, she knows it, she is learning, has been riding reining horses three years as time permitted, which was little.

Reining well takes long, not many can do it well, consistently, on a horse they don’t get to train with much.
Anky did say that, if she didn’t find time to learn more in six months, then she would reevaluate if she wanted to keep on with reining.

Reining looks easy, it is not and some of what you say, well, I don’t think you have been reining much either, have you?

I really wish people would listen and learn before being too critical of others already at the top.

Reining or dressage are not as easy as it seems and no one is riding perfectly evey step and no horse is performing perfectly every step.
That is why all keep learning during a lifetime and the more they know, the more they know how little they really know.:yes:[/QUOTE]

Of course I read the note. I disagree with it. One does not have to be a top rider to understand the fundamentals of horsemanship or of a particular discipline. Just because someone is a top rider does not mean they are infallible or perfect. Anky is not God. I tend to judge the person what I see in front of me rather than by the accomplishments they have made. Judges are not infallible either and every judged sport is open to subjectiveness.

Irregardless of whether or not she is beginner or not, she is going to (IMO) carry over what she knows of her own discipline into whatever other disciplines she rides in. I might not ride parkhorses but I am certainly not going to reef on the reins and sit with a rigid back on the horse when I ask for the halt, because that is not how I do it on any horse in any discipline.

Actually I do have experience in riding reining horses. I have never competed at it but I understand how it works; there are some very knowledgeable reiners at one of the barns I ride at and my Dad participated in reining when my family ranched. A really good reining horse is very responsive and does not require rein (though even some of the top riders do use rein). If you bump in the saddle and have a rigid back in a stop, your horse is going to be unable to develop a correct stop. It is not that Anky made the odd mistake here or there, that is just how she rode, period. She pulled back each time and skidded along the seat of her saddle.

Of course I wouldn’t expect her to be perfect, but I would expect prior habits she has made and riding techniques she has established, to carry over. A person’s riding style and habits do not suddenly drastically change just because they ride in a different saddle.

Just sayin’. If you disagree, that’s fine, I was just trying to add some insight into the situation to consider. My mistake, obviously. I did not realise there was no room for differing opinions.

[egontoast]

If you disagree, that’s fine, I was just trying to add some insight into the situation to consider. Anky is not God

i didn’t know God was a top reiner.

This hatred of Anky is really disturbing. She’s a beginner reiner so it’s what you might expect from a beginner reiner.

PS Oh I see you deleted the God reference.

[naturalequus]

[QUOTE=EquiMaster;4658223]

Drawing conclusions without any background information or knowledge : :lol::lol:[/QUOTE]

Oh, I am fully aware of the background information and knowledge. I am not saying she is not a successful rider, that she does not bring a lot of knowledge to the table, or that she is a terrible rider or person. Just saying maybe she is not perfect and suggesting a possible reason as to why she is having difficulties halting her horse(s).

[naturalequus]

[QUOTE=egontoast;4658524]
i didn’t know God was a top reiner.

This hatred of Anky is really disturbing. She’s a beginner reiner so it’s what you might expect from a beginner reiner.

PS Oh I see you deleted the God reference.[/QUOTE]

Hatred?? :lol::lol::lol::lol: No, egontoast, you are greatly misunderstanding me.

PS. No, I moved it to where I felt it sat best

[egontoast]

List of honour

Olympic Games:
1988: 26th, Prisco / 5th with team
1992: 4th, Gestion Bonfire / Silver with team
1996: Silver, Gestion Bonfire / Silver with team
2000: Gold, Gestion Bonfire / Silver with team
2004: Gold, Gestion Salinero / 4th with team
2008: Gold, I.P.S Salinero / Silver with team

World Championships:
1990: 23rd, Prisco
1994: Gold Medal, Gestion Bonfire / Silver with team
1998: Silver Medal, Gestion Bonfire / Silver with team
2002: 11th, Gestion Krack C / 5th with team
2006: Gold and silver medal, Keltec Salinero / Silver with team

European Championships:
1989: 22nd, Prisco, 5th with team
1991: 5th, Gestion Bonfire, Bronze with team
1995: Silver, Gestion Bonfire, Silver with team
1997: Silver, Gestion Bonfire, Silver with team
1999: Gold, Gestion Bonfire, Silver with team
2005: Gold, Keltec Salinero, Silver with team
2007: Gold, Keltec Salinero, Gold with team
2009: Bronze, Salinero / Gold with team

Worldcup Finals:
1989: 7th, Prisco
1990: 9th, Prisco
1993: 9th, Gestion Cocktail
1995: 1st, Gestion Bonfire
1996: 1st, Gestion Bonfire
1997: 1st, Gestion Bonfire
1998: 2nd, Gestion Bonfire
1999: 1st, Gestion Bonfire
2000: 1st, Gestion Bonfire
2004: 1st, Gestion Salinero
2005: 1st, Keltec Salinero
2006: 1st, Keltec Salinero
2008: 1st, I.P.S Salinero
2009: 3rd, I.P.S Painted Black

World Championships for Young Horses:
1999: Silver, Ictenos
2003: Silver, Painted Black

Dutch Championships:
1990: 1st, Prisco
1991: 1st, Gestion Bonfire
1992: 1st, Gestion Bonfire
1993: 1st, Gestion Bonfire
1994: 1st, Gestion Bonfire
1995: 1st, Gestion Bonfire
1996: 1st, Gestion Bonfire
1997: 1st, Gestion Bonfire
1998: 1st, Gestion Bonfire
2000: 1st, Gestion Bonfire
2002: 3rd, Gestion Idool
2003: 1st, Gestion Salinero
2004: 2nd, Gestion Krack C
2005: 1st, Keltec Salinero
2006: 3rd, IPS Krack C
2007: 1st, Keltec Salinero
2008: 2nd, I.P.S Painted Black
2009: 2nd, I.P.S Salinero

KNHS Dutch Indoor championships Grand Prix:
2006: 1st, I.P.S Krack C
2008: 1st, I.P.S Painted Black

Dutch championships small tour:
1995: 1st, TCN Partout
1996: 1st, Gere
1997: 1st, Gestion Idool
1999: 1st, Gestion Joker
2001: 1st, Gestion Krack C
2002: 2nd, Gestion Salinero
2005: 1st, IPS Painted Black

Titles of honor:
1994: Athlete of the Year
1993: Rider of the Year
1994: Rider of the Year
1995: Rider of the Year
1996: Rider of the Year
1998: Rider of the Year
2000: Rider of the Century
2001: Rider of the Year
2004: Rider of the Year

I hope Anky is reading Coth so she can learn how she has gone so wrong. If only she could halt those horses , think how well she could have done.

[naturalequus]

Seems sort of an oxymoron for people to get all up in arms for suggesting a top rider might not be perfect, that all top riders are absolutely infallible and that unless you ride at their level, you may not criticise them, and yet turn around and say they do not support the excesssive use of Rolkur, a technique oft employed by many of these top riders.

I will point out again that I was not criticising Anky directly, I was simply pointing out a possible reason for her difficulties with the halt. Note, a possible reason. I could be completely incorrect.

Now, do not go off that I am ‘anti-Rolkur’ now, either. I am not. I feel it has its place when used in moderation (say, for a stride or two), to allow the horse to stretch out. Read my previous posts for my position on Rolkur, Deep, LDR, Hyperflexion, etc.

[naturalequus]

[QUOTE=egontoast;4658533]
I hope Anky is reading Coth so she can learn how she has gone so wrong. If only she could halt those horses , think how well she could have done.[/QUOTE]

If she is having problems with the halt. I do not like some of the things I see however it might be the reason she jokes about the halt, it might not be. And maybe she does not have problems with the halt, just it was suggested so I tried to offer some possible insight to consider. I would hope and anticipate she is already aware of why she has troubles with the halt, I am not trying to educate Anky.