New York Times article - USEF and Humble

[quietann]

[QUOTE=poltroon;6748409]
A medication like an NSAID for an arthritic horse allows him to work which in many cases is actually beneficial to his long term health, just like it’s beneficial for your grandmother to go out walking. A medication like Adequan which is meant to prevent arthritic changes in the first place is beneficial.

I don’t believe Robaxin for sore muscles is a beneficial use for a show horse. If the muscles are that sore, the horse needs time off. IMHO.[/QUOTE]

Very much a side point, but when I was rehabbing my horse after a suspensory injury, Robaxin helped relax her muscles so she could move out better. She became muscle-sore because she hadn’t been moving out during the earlier stall rest/hand walk part of the rehab. I don’t see what the difference between that and using Bute on a stiff horse is…

(And for the record, I wouldn’t use either of these medications in a non-sanctioned way for a show horse…)

[Ghazzu]

[QUOTE=aucowwy;6749135]
Disagree, you can give ace IM or orally and some other sedatives IM. Also banamine can be given orally as well. I do not think anyone should be allowed to give IV injection other than a vet or vet tech working with a vet.[/QUOTE]

Alternatively, you might actually try training a horse to tolerate clippers.
It ain’t rocket surgery.

PS. Haven’t yet seen a horse die from Banamine deficiency.

[Horseymama]

@annaelizabeth;6748659

Well here would be my plan of attack.
No drugs (any at all) to be injected 12-24 hours before a show. If you horse needs anything between that time and competing then why the eff are you competing it.The answer is zero tollerance during that period. ZERO.
Now of course this isn’t the easiest to enforce but this is we’re YOU come in. You all have mobile phones attached to you, take a photo or video if you see something dodgy
Harsher penelties for those who break the rules, for everyone, owner, rider and trainer. Starting at $2000 then I would double it for each time caught so 4000, 8000, 16000. If one of those claims ignorance, well that’s your own fault. You should know what is happening with your horse. I don’t care if you trainer told you it was fine, educate yourself!!! I can’t go Kill someone and claim its ok because I was ignorant of the law. It’s your own responsibility.
Any positive tests, horse, rider and trainer unable to compete for 3 months, then 6, 9, 12, your out for good.

I don’t think $2,000 for the first infraction is enough. I think it needs to hurt, as in at least $15,000 for each person; owner, rider and trainer, and suspension for a year. Then make it progressively more if there are successive incidents. That way people will think twice before violating the rules. And they will take a lot more responsibility for the horses they ride, train, and own.

The USEF needs to be an organization that is standing up for the horses and the fairness of competition. Right now they are just an “ol’ boys club.”

[Flying_Ponies]

[QUOTE=Jumper221;6749079]
. Even if the drugging stops, then these people will still shift towards other means, like lunging/riding till dead and witholding water. With those as the other options,better living through chemistry might be kinder to the horse. …I just don’t see any easy answer to the problem.[/QUOTE]

Jumper221 - Def not picking on you, and I get your point, but I found this so ironic.
“Better living through chemistry”.

Well, sometimes chemistry kills.

Some of these horses receive a ridiculous amount of ‘medication’ . ‘Medication’ not necc to treat a specific disease, but to make them more compliant. Whatever that is.
:dead:

[findeight]

@Eventer13;6749153

So, these people who hint about BNTs that drug their horses… why don’t you out them? Aren’t you perpetuating the problem? Maybe if these BNTs were publicly shunned they might be less likely to drug their horses?

Well, maybe because if the protest is disallowed (and with no supeona power or law enforcement authority that can happen) you lose the fee (500 isn’t it) and get slapped with a civil suit you have to hire a lawyer to defend a la EM and Ms Williams.

USEF has to take the onus off protesting and can do so and still protect against frivoulous protests if they rethink the fees and processes that follow the protest. Right now, saying something can be a career ender for a groom or braider, there is nobody to say it to and they don’t have 500 even if they are USEF members, and many are not so have no standing to protest.

And USEF HAS to adjust the fines for repeat offenders and even tighten up on first timers no more censure and fine, they get a few months off. If it’s just over the limit or too close to the competition? Tough, stop throwing drugs around like candy and treat them like…drugs with well known limits on amount and time frame. The infamous and overused wrong bucket defense? Get better barn help and stop ignoring your (overpriced) on the road barn management.

Clients have to option of pulling the plug and leaving a trainer if they don’t like what’s going on…but they don’t know, get snowed into thinking it’s ok everybody does it or choose to ignore it. OWNERS provide the horses and the financing that allows trainers to keep on overmedicating…they need more then a wrist slap. If they get a substantial fine and all horses owned/leased by them are suspended for 6 months? Or a year for repeat offenses? That will get their attention. Potentially make the needle happy trainers clean up their act or lose the client.

The argument that it might drive the unethical to more and more “untestables” is really no reason not to get tougher with what can be regulated.

Oh…who was saying Bute is a drug and they don’t use it but Pentosan is OK??? Huh?

Hmmmm…Scott Stewart on the cover of PH??? Interesting.

[lauriep]

[QUOTE=aucowwy;6749135]
Disagree, you can give ace IM or orally and some other sedatives IM. Also banamine can be given orally as well. I do not think anyone should be allowed to give IV injection other than a vet or vet tech working with a vet.[/QUOTE]

Giving drugs IM is fine if it isn’t an emergency, but if a horse is colicking badly, or hurt badly, you want to get those drugs in the bloodstream as quickly as possible. Orally is the SLOWEST way and I would never rely on that for a bad colic… IV injections aren’t rocket science if you learn the technique correctly. I have seen MANY vets who suck at IV injections and have turned my previously easy to inject horses into fearful jerks. Any trainer or barn manger should be competent in giving an IV shot. Which has NOTHING to do with the problem of drugging horses.

[Jeito]

[QUOTE=Ghazzu;6749315]
PS. Haven’t yet seen a horse die from Banamine deficiency.[/QUOTE]

And I haven’t yet seen a child die from blue ribbon deficiency :lol:

[SnicklefritzG]

[QUOTE=Discobold;6749896]
And I haven’t yet seen a child die from blue ribbon deficiency :lol:[/QUOTE]

Maybe not die but massive temper tantrum. :eek:

[saratoga]

I just dont understand the need for all of these drugs, let alone IV injections…maybe because I’ve never competed in the upper levels of any sport where the mindset seems to be common. At shows, I have a “trainer” but she’s not my Puppet Master…I wouldnt want anyone but a vet, that I called, going anywhere near my horses with a needle. I think saying that you NEED to have syringes and a supply of injectable meds at shows is bizarre. Yes, colics and injuries do happen, but they are rare and its not like shows are held in the middle of nowhere where a vet might not be available. Yeah, yeah, I’m sure someone has an anecdote about just this happening at a show and thank God their trainer was there during a colic or the horse would have died, but seriously, people! I’ve gone to many, many, many shows and events and rides in my day, by myself and with groups, and I/we never packed any needles or injectables and no horse ever suffered because of it.

[vineyridge]

Don’t know if this has been mentioned here, but it is on the thread on the Breeding board.

There is an article in the current COTH about the USEF and drugs. Apparently the vet in charge of the USEF program brags that USEF has spent the past eighteen months working for an exemption from FEI rules on FEI disciplines adopting FEI drug rules for National events. Of course the FEI Rules are much more stringent than USEF drug rules. He’s PROUD that the US is allowed to apply its current rules instead of FEI ones.

I know Hunters are not an FEI discipline, but the horses should still have FEI level protection and not the lax USEF ones. Why are US horses includng those in the FEI disciplines, so much more frail and medication dependent than horses in the rest of the world?

[gumshoe]

Were these shows where you stabled 5 or 6 days at a time? Or shows that were multiple weeks and the horses lived on the show grounds for 3 weeks without leaving?

[QUOTE=saratoga;6749999]
I just dont understand the need for all of these drugs, let alone IV injections…maybe because I’ve never competed in the upper levels of any sport where the mindset seems to be common. At shows, I have a “trainer” but she’s not my Puppet Master…I wouldnt want anyone but a vet, that I called, going anywhere near my horses with a needle. I think saying that you NEED to have syringes and a supply of injectable meds at shows is bizarre. Yes, colics and injuries do happen, but they are rare and its not like shows are held in the middle of nowhere where a vet might not be available. Yeah, yeah, I’m sure someone has an anecdote about just this happening at a show and thank God their trainer was there during a colic or the horse would have died, but seriously, people! I’ve gone to many, many, many shows and events and rides in my day, by myself and with groups, and I/we never packed any needles or injectables and no horse ever suffered because of it.[/QUOTE]

[findeight]

FEI rules also require sequestration and controlled access which is not going to fly with over 2k horses on the grounds…and who is going to pay for the security guards and fencing? What about haul ins, most are not going to want to be there with a stall 12 or 24 hours out or more as FEI requires.

If you are speaking of zero tolerance? I think thats a little draconian with horses living on the road for weeks at a time as is the reality of the show circuit today, like it or not.

I don’t see a thing wrong with declared therapeutic amounts within a defined time frame for specific reasons approved by a vet-and they are busting alot of people for abusing those limits…but the penalties are a joke and that’s a big part of it. I have no problem declaring them or the reason they were given and a vets name.

For the record, mine went on 1.5 g of bute paste 12 hours out when stabled on concrete and living on the road without turnout, regumate or Depo from April thru Sept. Once or twice she got dex at least 12 hours out for actual hives (with no behavior change noted). She had hock injections every 18 months or so from age 15 to when she was retired at age 20. She got Legend IV about a week before shows and then I switched to the oral LubriSyn. Thats all.

I think the vet profession overall needs to take a hard look at themselves and their ethics here too.

But don’t see the need for FEI level enforcement with no additional infrastructure when we cannot even enforce what we have now.

[vineyridge]

They could adopt the FEI standards on responsible parties and the FEI standards on what are considered illegal medications, as well as the FEI standards on pre-filing when a medication is used before competition. They haven’t even done that. Mario Deslauriers didn’t get set down by the USEF when his horse tested positive for cocaine at the USEF sanctioned Olympic Trials. He lost Jane Clark as a sponsor, though. She’s bolted the USEF, and her show jumpers are now being ridden by a Brit. You’d think that loss would make an impact.

[Molly99]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;6750021]
Don’t know if this has been mentioned here, but it is on the thread on the Breeding board.

There is an article in the current COTH about the USEF and drugs. Apparently the vet in charge of the USEF program brags that USEF has spent the past eighteen months working for an exemption from FEI rules on FEI disciplines adopting FEI drug rules for National events. Of course the FEI Rules are much more stringent than USEF drug rules. He’s PROUD that the US is allowed to apply its current rules instead of FEI ones.

I know Hunters are not an FEI discipline, but the horses should still have FEI level protection and not the lax USEF ones. Why are US horses includng those in the FEI disciplines, so much more frail and medication dependent than horses in the rest of the world?[/QUOTE]

What you failed to include in this was that they were working to be allowed for FEI disciplines to apply their OWN rules and not use the mandatory FEI suspension times.

This work did not have any impact on the how hunter drug ininfractions would be applied as they are not an FEI discipline.

Also, the FEI has a zero tolerance only in the last few years, due to work of the USEF, has started to allow certain medications.

The USEF drug lab is afterall an approved FEI lab.

What they worked on, had NOTHING, to do with the permitted drugs. That had already been addressed for non-FEI disciplines. FEI disciplines have stricter guidelines even if it is only a national level show. At least now, the USEF can use their judgement in determining suspension times.

Before this FEI ruling, if you showed in the jumpers at a local USEF show and misjudged the amount of Bute you gave the horse, were drug tested and found positive; you would have been subject to the FEI suspension period. Now the USEF can use their own hearing panel to decide the time period and infraction.

Would you really have been OK for an FEI level suspension imposed on a .90m horses at a small USEF show simply because the FEI bans that substance and the FEI allows a small amount?

[Molly99]

The FEI deems the rider as the responsible party. If that would to be the USEF responsible party you would never have a catch rider again. You better hope you have access to a good rider in your current barn. Juniors/parents would be less inclined to allow their children to catch ride horses for the simple liability.

Plus the FEI has age restrictions where would all the under 14 children show???

You can’t simple move to part of the FEI rules, without looking at all the implications of their other rules that are part of their big picture.

USEF is a national level, it makes sense that the FEI (international) would have more restrictions.

Look at any other sport the rules become tighter as you move up the ladder.

We need to stop trying to be the FEI. They are far from perfect with their own set of issues.

[vineyridge]

Yes, indeedy. The USEF has been a force in the FEI to move away from zero tolerance. I don’t consider that a benefit. As to your last question, the answer is “Yes”. If the FEI penalty applied, maybe more riders, trainers and owners would be less willing to inject.

I agree that hunters isn’t an FEI discipline, so FEI penalties wouldn’t apply there. But we’re still talking horses and riders and horse welfare; and why should hunters be less protected than reiners and show jumpers and eventers and dressage horses? Or, as the USEF has done, reduce the protection for the other disciplines to match that of hunters?

Other countries have multiple FEI competition opportunities for the young and even young on ponies. Not the United States and the USEF. Why not? I just looked at the FEI Jumping rules and they make provision for 12 and over, Children, Juniors, Young Riders and Ponies. They do have some height limits–for 12 year olds, it’s 1.20 meters.

From recent results, whatever the USEF is doing isn’t working. We did much better internationally under AHSA.

As to catch riding, that basically means that we prefer to protect riders on drugged horses rather than getting to the knot of the problem which is the drugging itself. If no catch riders would be willing to ride, well, tough. The trainers who drug would either have to quit drugging or do without. If it cost them money to hire a “barn rider”, tough. They’d be going through “barn riders” like snot through kleenex.

[Limerick]

I will ask again-is there a valid reason to pack liquid magnesium in your show trunk??

[lauriep]

[QUOTE=Limerick;6750229]
I will ask again-is there a valid reason to pack liquid magnesium in your show trunk??[/QUOTE]

No.

[Limerick]

Why can’t USEF fine those caught with it? I know one needs to prove intent but since there are no valid reasons for having it, couldn’t it be treated like alcohol in a teen’s high school locker??

[Jumper221]

[QUOTE=Limerick;6750248]
Why can’t USEF fine those caught with it? I know one needs to prove intent but since there are no valid reasons for having it, couldn’t it be treated like alcohol in a teen’s high school locker??[/QUOTE]

Even if the USEF had the time or power to search everyone’s trunks (and again, without FEI level stabling, not sure how that would work), it would be pretty easy for people to just tear the label off the bottles.