[QUOTE=Discobold;6755092]
Well, duh, didn’t you hear her say these drugs were preventatives? He was on Depo and Estrone to prevent him from getting pregnant :lol:[/QUOTE]
Champagne on tablet. Thank you for making my evening!
[QUOTE=MistyBlue;6755032]
From the Humble/killed a pony/Williams case:
From the Marks/verbal abuse case/RoyalT:
Guess that’s allegedly one way for your attorneys to keep you out of court/quiet.[/QUOTE]
MistyBlue, in those cases that you referenced, did Elizabeth Mandarino use that same excuse for 2 different cases?
[QUOTE=ChocolateHooves;6755105]
Is there anywhere else I can read that? I’m not sure if its just that I’m on my iPad but I can’t make out a lot of those words. Same with the Marks one[/QUOTE]
Very hard to read on my IPad too.
[QUOTE=amberhill;6753101]
Her daughter still has Royal T as her profile picture so I can assume her daughter had a wonderful experience riding my beautiful pony who by the way she continued to show after Humble’s death and even stayed for the Pony Hunt Teams. If she thought I was illegally drugging my ponies, common sense would tell her not to allow her daughter to mount my pony. If it were me, I would not have allowed my daughter to mount him if I had a doubt in my mind. She obviously wasnt too worried and had alterior motives as she sent me threatening emails afterwards to refund her monies as that was my “least expensive option”.[/QUOTE]Is this when you have house guests over so that they can post on your behalf using various screen names?
Holy crap. If I were EM/AH attorney(s) I would cut my wrists. This is an unbelievable thread. Wow. Just wow.
[QUOTE=M. Owen;6745127]
USEF posted a response on their website, here:
http://www.usefnetwork.com/news/9441/2012/12/28/usefs_response_to_the_new_york_tim.aspx[/QUOTE]
I go on vacation for a minute and all hell breaks loose (as I predicted, by the way).
Long’s trotting out of the USEF D&M committee’s work on GABA entirely misses the point. Since it’s inception, it has played “catch up” with pharmacists, banning the drugs it could create tests for. But that leaves out entirely stuff like Magnesium found at some levels in undrugged horses. It’s still illegal to use that (or anything else) for “performance enhancing purposes,” so the USEF needs to create procedures for catching trainers who use these difficult-to-detect substances.
The suggestion made early in this thread, that requires the person signing the “trainer” line on the entry from to submit all necropsy results for a horse they drug so badly that it dies on show grounds would be a start.
Any legal problem with this?
[QUOTE=ChocolateHooves;6745144]
I am participating in this thread, but Ms.Williams is NOT the competitors mother. She was the mother of the girl who leased Royal T, and her daughter attends the same school as the rider of Humble.[/QUOTE]
The NYT article names Carrie Ray as both a steward and the mother who was leasing Humble for her kid at Devon. Please tell me Ray was not officiating as Steward at Devon. IIRC, that Steward’s report was piss poor: All it said was that she came upon a dead pony. Were Ray a client of Mandarino’s and an official, I’d say there was a conflict of interest large enough to choke a pony.
Anyone know if Ray was the Steward who filed that report?
Otherwise, Stewards are not allowed to officiate at shows where they have horses competing, right?
Well they “caught” a gaggle of them(Carolina Gold), yet STILL nothing has happened…
[QUOTE=JER;6745576]
Dear Chronicle of the Horse,
I love you dearly, but this should have been YOUR story.
May the new year 2013 bring you the courage to stand up and do real journalism when our community needs it most.
Big thanks to the NYT for this A1 (in several ways) report. The video was excellent.[/QUOTE]
Much better that this appeared in the NYT. Were it limited to the Chronicle, it would remain an inside issue and the USEF would feel little pressure to change.
[QUOTE=adhock;6746301]
A the picture that the “pony mom” took with her cell phone of the meds list (reported in The NYT story) is harrowing and appalling. [/QUOTE]
NYT reports that Williams took this snapshot before Humble died. Something was already wrong in her relationship with Mandarino. IME, most owners either don’t know or vaguely approve of what trainers do in terms of medication. They don’t look for evidence of excesses without cause.
[QUOTE=mvp;6755444]
The NYT article names Carrie Ray as both a steward and the mother who was leasing Humble for her kid at Devon. Please tell me Ray was not officiating as Steward at Devon. IIRC, that Steward’s report was piss poor: All it said was that she came upon a dead pony. Were Ray a client of Mandarino’s and an official, I’d say there was a conflict of interest large enough to choke a pony.
Anyone know if Ray was the Steward who filed that report?
Otherwise, Stewards are not allowed to officiate at shows where they have horses competing, right?[/QUOTE]
I believe it would be against the rules for an exhibitor showing and a steward officiating at the same show to be related.
I also believe the steward who filed the official report at Devon was a man, although I don’t recall his name off the top of my head.
MistyBlue, in those cases that you referenced, did Elizabeth Mandarino use that same excuse for 2 different cases?
According to what EM has posted, court documents and dates on those documents…yes, 2 different cases at 2 different times. September 17th and November 4th IIRC.
[QUOTE=cdnsp0rthorse;6746464]
Is dex legal to use at a show in USA?[/QUOTE]
But not for the purpose of making a horse quiet. It’s not legal to use it that way in any amount. That element of the D&M rules is one of the primary causes of this problem.
I don’t see anywhere in the article where is says that Carrie Ray is a steward.
Also, it would be a conflict for a steward to have a family member or trainer showing at a show they were officiating.
FYI- a quick search of the LOC does not show that Carrie Ray is a USEF steward.
I suspect you read the one sentence where the say in the steward’s report, Carrie Ray is quoted as saying. That is not stating that Carrie Ray is the steward, but that the stewards report has a quote from her.
Also, I am not sure what eye witness information you would expect from the steward as this occurred for the start of the show. This all happened at least an hour before the start of the show. Stewards only need to be there by the start of the show, however most are there approx. 30 mins before.
[QUOTE=MistyBlue;6755032]
From the Humble/killed a pony/Williams case:
From the Marks/verbal abuse case/RoyalT:
Guess that’s allegedly one way for your attorneys to keep you out of court/quiet.[/QUOTE]
People in her family seem to die at far more convenient times than poor Humble did.
[QUOTE=MHM;6747650]
Exactly. All the horses deserve that protection, not just the winners.[/QUOTE]
A philosophy that is a lovely as it is expensive.
But look, everyone shows to try and win. Don’t the also rans get protection if the winners are tested? Who would bother with a horse who always was 5th in his division… so long as you could drug him?
[
[QUOTE=juststartingout;6748507]
I’d rather spend time enlisting! ALL like minded people to change what is … rich poor and in between … than complain about the bad actors who happen to have money is … they are just part of the problem like any other bad actors[/QUOTE] by juststartingout
I don’t know if Mrs. Williams would agree…she lost her money to file a protest and now is becoming embroiled in a lawsuit.[/QUOTE]
ANd – she did the right thing and that has a satisfaction all of its own. The suit against her - if it is even filed - is frivolous and everyone knows that… my guess - she would agree and she would probably do it all over again[/QUOTE]
You are still ignoring the money problem.
Would you file a protest if you knew that that might entail the cost of defending yourself in a separate legal battle?
I wouldn’t. Getting someone to quit drugging show horses paired with a governing body that has show itself to have no interest in really doing that it not a cause I’ll go bankrupt for.
IMO, no one asking the USEF to enforce its own rules should be subject to this risk. If they are, it means that the rich can do what they want-- those with deep enough pockets can cheat because they can afford to threaten further litigation. I suppose that other people with still deeper pockets can pursue these protests. But raising the stakes this way as Mandarino’s suit has takes the option of protesting out of most USEF members’ options.
[QUOTE=Eventer13;6749153]
So, these people who hint about BNTs that drug their horses… why don’t you out them? Aren’t you perpetuating the problem? Maybe if these BNTs were publicly shunned they might be less likely to drug their horses?[/QUOTE]
Start it up, then!
I want you to write a letter to the editor of Practical Horseman criticizing that magazine for featuring a trainer who has been set down for D&M infractions in recent memory. Cite the Humble hubbub to support your “outing” of Mr. Stewart and disappointment of PH if you wish. But put your money where your mouth is. I’ll look forward to reading your letter of BNT shunning.
the problem is if you out the BNTs and you have a child showing or yourself, the judges will retaliate against you. Some of the BNTs are also judges.
[QUOTE=Molly99;6747627]
Random testing is really the best option, for various reasons. I do agree that at certain level events testing the top 3 would be good as well, but not a rule. Random implies that anyone at anytime can be tested. That impacts every horse at the show, not just the winners.[/QUOTE]
Mvp, perhaps you missed that my post was in response to the above comment regarding the value of random testing. If people know that ANY horse might be tested at any time, that protects ALL the horses.
[QUOTE=mvp;6755670]A philosophy that is a lovely as it is expensive.
But look, everyone shows to try and win. Don’t the also rans get protection if the winners are tested? Who would bother with a horse who always was 5th in his division… so long as you could drug him?[/QUOTE]
There are plenty of horses that are very unlikely to get top ribbons in certain competitions- the kind, safe, slow, habitual four-faulter in a big childrens’ jumper division at WEF, the novice adult hunter whose rider will usually miss at least one distance in every class, if not more. Those horses still deserve protection, even if they never win.
There’s the old saying that 10% of the horses win 90% of the ribbons. The other 90% of the horses also need protection from bad chemistry experiments.
