New York Times article - USEF and Humble

[mvp]

[QUOTE=cdnsp0rthorse;6746464]
Is dex legal to use at a show in USA?[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Molly99;6755502]I don’t see anywhere in the article where is says that Carrie Ray is a steward.

Also, it would be a conflict for a steward to have a family member or trainer showing at a show they were officiating.

FYI- a quick search of the LOC does not show that Carrie Ray is a USEF steward.

I suspect you read the one sentence where the say in the steward’s report, Carrie Ray is quoted as saying. That is not stating that Carrie Ray is the steward, but that the stewards report has a quote from her.

Also, I am not sure what eye witness information you would expect from the steward as this occurred for the start of the show. This all happened at least an hour before the start of the show. Stewards only need to be there by the start of the show, however most are there approx. 30 mins before.[/QUOTE]

Gotcha. No, I didn’t expect the Steward to have been there when this one pony was collapsing on cross-ties. But I did recall from an earlier thread a less-than-Sherlock Holmes’-best report and wondered why that was.

[mvp]

[QUOTE=MHM;6755819]
Mvp, perhaps you missed that my post was in response to the above comment regarding the value of random testing. If people know that ANY horse might be tested at any time, that protects ALL the horses.

There are plenty of horses that are very unlikely to get top ribbons in certain competitions- the kind, safe, slow, habitual four-faulter in a big childrens’ jumper division at WEF, the novice adult hunter whose rider will usually miss at least one distance in every class, if not more. Those horses still deserve protection, even if they never win.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, but holey mole the cost of protecting every last horse showing!

[skydy]

[QUOTE=leyla25;6755793]
the problem is if you out the BNTs and you have a child showing or yourself, the judges will retaliate against you. Some of the BNTs are also judges.[/QUOTE]

I think the problem REALLY is, that even if you have leased a pony for your child to show at Devon ,(a competition held under USEF rules) and it drops, convulses and dies at the end of a needle, administered by Elizabeth Mandarino the “trainer”, and you PAY to file a protest with USEF (because something must be wrong yes?), the result is that the “trainer” sues YOU,the person who leased the pony and filed the protest, and USEF throws it’s hands in the air and claims that they can’t do a thing about it.

Do you really believe that reporting to USEF that someone is injecting their horse with a banned substance would have any conequence whatsoever when a dead pony at the end of a needle is beyond USEF’s ability to handle?

The problem does not lie with honest competitors not stepping up to report the doping of horses, but with the USEF that claims that it is unable to punish this behaviour. :no::mad:

[MHM]

[QUOTE=mvp;6755822]
Yeah, but holey mole the cost of protecting every last horse showing![/QUOTE]
I’m not suggesting they test them all. I’m endorsing the idea of testing AT RANDOM. That discourages everybody from breaking the rules. Not just the people who expect to win.

[gabby.gator]

[QUOTE=MHM;6755841]
I’m not suggesting they test them all. I’m endorsing the idea of testing AT RANDOM. That discourages everybody from breaking the rules. Not just the people who expect to win.[/QUOTE]

exactly. this is how it is done at the show series I mentioned. completely random. and up to the vet as to how horses are chosen. some years the vet will roll dice for class number and placing. other years just walking the show grounds w/ steward and saying “that one, that one and that one”.

it is well known that if your horse is on the show grounds, competing or not, it’s “up for” being chosen to have blood pulled. If horse tests positive, the entire barn is disqualified for the current year, and the next.

this show series is a large schooling show series. not huge, but a three day event that is well known and fun, there’s a littlel bit of everything for everyone. A few years ago, a “BNT” (big fish, little pond) had a horse test positive, claimed that it had been showing colic signs the day before so he gave it banamine. Took his protest all the way to state court, where he lost.

Now, I’m not so naive that I believe there are NO drugged horses, but I do know that there are a lot less drugged horses than at the A rated shows that are local.

working on the committee for a couple of years, I believe the cost to test (test kit plus lab fees) is about $500, per horse. Is there no way the larger shows couldn’t budget in a few tests?? we test 3 horses per show/ 3 shows per series. seems like not alot, as there’s a couple hundred horses showing, but it’s the RANDOMNESS that really discourages attempting.

[Monarch]

I was under the impression that drug testing at USEF shows was random. That they could test any horse on the show grounds whether it was showing or not.
M

[MistyBlue]

it is well known that if your horse is on the show grounds, competing or not, it’s “up for” being chosen to have blood pulled. If horse tests positive, the entire barn is disqualified for the current year, and the next.

Is it the entire barn or anyone under that trainer?
Because if an owner has their horse stuck without their knowledge because that trainer wants everyone under his/her name at the show to look good…and that horse gets DQed, owner gets pissed off, can owner leave barn for new barn and continue to show elsewhere or are they screwed for up to 2 seasons no matter where they ride out of?

Or if the trainer’s own horse from a barn is tested positive but none of the boarders/students are…are they all screwed from showing for that long or can they move and show under someone else?

[MHM]

[QUOTE=Monarch;6755912]
I was under the impression that drug testing at USEF shows was random. That they could test any horse on the show grounds whether it was showing or not.
M[/QUOTE]

It is random now. Some people were suggesting that should change to concentrating on the winners. I beg to differ, for the reasons stated above.

I believe as it stands now, a horse must be entered in the show to be subject to drug testing. If you have a non-showing horse on the grounds, it is not subject to testing, IIRC.

[gabby.gator]

[QUOTE=MistyBlue;6755953]
Is it the entire barn or anyone under that trainer?
Because if an owner has their horse stuck without their knowledge because that trainer wants everyone under his/her name at the show to look good…and that horse gets DQed, owner gets pissed off, can owner leave barn for new barn and continue to show elsewhere or are they screwed for up to 2 seasons no matter where they ride out of?

Or if the trainer’s own horse from a barn is tested positive but none of the boarders/students are…are they all screwed from showing for that long or can they move and show under someone else?[/QUOTE]

I would have to investigate that one, but my understanding is that, for the current showing year, you are out. If you move barns when the current year is over, I would assume you could show then next year under a different trainer.

[Monarch]

Thanks for clarifying MHM. Re read GR402 testing misunderstood earlier.
M

[magnolia73]

I just wanted to post this… my New Year’s Resolution is to be a bitch when needed.

If you KNOWINGLY drug a horse too sore, too unsettled, too lame… for the purpose of winning ribbons, you are an [ass]. I’d like to take you to the nearest Cross Fit Box. Make you workout. Pump you fill of pain meds and some valium. Take you back the next day and the next and the next. Just keep repeating, keep “fixing you up” without a break. Joint injections, whatever. Then when I finally break you, I’ll dump you somewhere.

People who do this [edit] are an embarassment and more disgusting than the bikers and others that drug to win because you bringing along a partner with no say in your disgusting activity.

I understand the need for occasional therapy, but it goes too far too often. Really? There is that much money in the hunters? The owners really need the prize money or a giant return on investment that there is need to overuse the horses like work mules?

[edit] Did she even consider the hit to her bottom line when that pony collapsed under a young rider who’s parents probably had access to bigger lawyers? WTF happens to your bottom line, USEF and trainers when your stupidity and greed kills a cute little rich girl who’s drugged pony stumbles and she is injured or worse yet, killed?

You know, occasional bute and joint injections and even some Ace are one thing… but these wonderful combos that don’t test are just despicable. May all of the people who use these things go rot in hell and I pray for your horses.

[Tiramit]

Why can’t testing involve both scenarios? Mandatory tests for the top 3 or 4 places plus random tests for any horses registered to show? In many cases there will probably be some overlap in the top placings anyway, which should help with any increased costs.

[Eventer13]

When I said that, I was talking about the COTHers who have no problem saying “I saw a BNT/BNT’s groom sticking a horse right before a class” but won’t come out here and say who it was. Scott Steward HAS been outed… he’s made it to the D&M list, everyone here knows he has some sketchy drug practices. Its up to them to decide if they want to train with him. But at least its well-known.

If PH wants to put a cheater on their cover, that’s their decision. I don’t get the magazine anymore. But I’m talking about all the other trainers that aren’t getting caught, where someone has seen them inject a horse with a questionable substance or knows of someone (client) that has heard them admit to the practice.

I have heard of several trainers “outed” on the eventing forum for poor training practices, to the point where I won’t clinic with those trainers. Luckily, drugging isn’t a huge problem in that sport (not sure if I’ve ever heard of it happening, actually, although I’m sure it has). But I would have no problem telling everyone here if someone’s working student for an upper level eventer said her horses got a little Ace before their dressage test. Its better than hinting that its happening but not giving anyone the chance to know who to avoid.

[Ghazzu]

@magnolia73;6756173

The owners really need the prize money or a giant return on investment that there is need to overuse the horses like work mules?

Work mules owned by an intelligent muleteer aren’t overworked. Because s/he knows how to take care of the animals that their livelihood depends on.

I think the problem is too many riders, not enough horsemen.
The horse is regarded as no more than an expensive piece of sporting equipment–an expensive tennis racket or set of golf clubs.

Lots of willful ignorance about the long term effects of showing week in and week out, and the medication “program” that entails.
Lots of lip service about “I love my horsie”, but all hat and no cattle when it comes down to horse’s welfare vs. rider’s showing ambitions.

[gumshoe]

My opinion, it isn’t about the prize money that goes with a ribbon. It isn’t the owners/leasers.

It’s about the trainers. Keep the students’ names at the top of every list, then every kid either wants to buy one of her ponies/horses or every kid wants to be in her barn.

These kids get “groomed” much the way a pedophile “grooms” a child. Tell her how wonderful she is, how special her pony/horse is (the one that has been drugged up by the trainer to be so wonderful). Then the kid outgrows the pony/horse, either because she ages out of the pony or her stellar riding ability, as described by the trainer. She needs a new pony/horse. Guess what? Trainer has the perfect one for her in the barn (also drugged up to be wonderful).

If the kid or her parents catch on to what’s happening, buh-bye. There’s a sucker born every minute and another kid who has been waiting for a spot with this “BNT”.

It’s all about income generating for the trainer. All the rest is just a means to do it.

Edit: I don’t think for a second that this absolves the parents of these kids of any responsibility. It’s about time more kids were required to have more responsibility in the care of their horses. Not just arriving at the barn 10 minutes before a lesson starts to a perfectly groomed and tacked up horse. Ask questions. What is it exactly that I’m paying for with this “meds” charge on my invoice? Parents fully enable it to happen.

[plainbay22]

[QUOTE=KellyS;6754596]
I would not be surprised to find that if a clinical study were carried out, the “effectiveness” noted by “a number of barns” would simply be a placebo effect.

In addition, Legend is labelled for a maximum administration of 3 doses, 1 week apart. Safety studies used a maximum administration period of 1 dose a week for 9 weeks. While some veterinarians may be recommending Legend’s use Q 48 H during competition, that use is certainly off label and has not been evaluated in any clinical studies to date.

Very few trainers, if any, have any background in veterinary pharmacology; it’s no wonder that horses/ponies continue to drop dead at shows. I hardly believe the AVMA would support veterinarians dispensing and recommending such off-label use of many of these “common” horse show drugs. There really is no defense for it.

I think the 12-hour cutoff for drug administration should pertain to all medications and drugs. No competition horse/pony should be stuck 2 hours prior to a class to receive anything.[/QUOTE]

Exactly what I was thinking.

[plainbay22]

[QUOTE=MistyBlue;6754663]
Oddly enough…medicating horses is usually recommended and dosed based on each individual animal’s immediate health needs as opposed to how important each show may be.

But then that’s when moral vets do the medicating as opposed to owners, trainers and riders attempting to make uneducated medical decisions based on possible projected income or ribbon placings. :sigh:[/QUOTE]

And therein lies the problem.

[Freebird]

Honestly, even if the pony didn’t die, just looking at that medication list makes my head spin. I just cannot see the purpose of giving a “sound with no health issues” small pony 7cc’s of Banimine twice a day. Let alone all the other crap he was getting. I just.don’t.get.it.

[Carolinadreamin]

According to the NY Times article, the last injection Humble received (you know, where the syringe and needle “got lost”), did not contain any of the meds as listed on that long list outside of Humble’s stall. Am I reading that correctly? If so, what was in that syringe and has Elizabeth Mandarino stated so?

[Lord_Helpus]

[QUOTE=gumshoe;6756223]

Edit: I don’t think for a second that this absolves the parents of these kids of any responsibility. It’s about time more kids were required to have more responsibility in the care of their horses. Not just arriving at the barn 10 minutes before a lesson starts to a perfectly groomed and tacked up horse. Ask questions. What is it exactly that I’m paying for with this “meds” charge on my invoice? Parents fully enable it to happen.[/QUOTE]

I foresee a day when monthly full training board goes up $200/month and the category of drugs/medications disappears from the bill. I foresee it happening soon and at many different BNT’s barns.

Yes, you heard it here first.