I know many barns that are ahead of the curve then, because they’ve been doing that for years…
When it comes to testing there isn’t one reason why you couldn’t test winners and test randomly as well. I have always supported testing winners because if you are medicating illegally and not winning, let’s face it, few people are going to emulate your program. If the winners are cheating and being caught that sends a better message than just getting randomly selected. Human nature is to call the latter bad luck, but you will know the former will catch up with you sooner or later.
Why not have a program that randomly targets a few divisions where the winners are automatically tested as well as a random selection of horses. If the testers know they have to test at least 4 divisions, perhaps one unrated, one zone rated and two nationally rated divisions, X horses pinning first through third, then that absolutely takes away the rap that some trainers have that they are being targeted. Add to that X horses randomly tested and youhave your bases covered, for what seems to me to not be any additional cost/change in overall testing procedure.
Back in my younger days, I was a working student/head groom at a nationally winning barn in that breed’s equivalent of the A circuit, during a similar type of reprehensible situation… that still occurs 20 years later.
I am second-generation mexican-american. My great-grandparents were migrant farmworkers. My BS degree is in the social sciences.
I don’t want this to come out wrong: If you really want to know what is happening at the big shows and in the big barns, take someone with you who speaks Spanish and go talk to the stable hands. They see everything and know exactly who is doing what to whom.
Because the stable hands tend are sometimes here in the US without legal immigration papers, they are afraid to speak for fear of deportation.
My experience was that the BNTs had their “illegals” or “Mexicans” do the actual doping/soreing/whatever, so that if it was ever exposed, then the BNT could publicly profess innocence and blame everything on the now-fired or deported “illegal.”
Just my two cents.
Regards,
Amber
Lord Helpus,
Very astute.
I’ve learned a lot from your postings on this thread. Thank you.
Does anyone know who EM’s vets are that have provided the scripts for all these injectables? I would love to know who is tending to the vet needs of all those dozens of ponies that she trying to sell/lease. Maybe she has 9 vets to match the 9 lawyers. Really…this is an unbelievable saga. It may set the record on the BB for the most amount of views/comments and the most lawsuits generated from all the comments that have been posted. The Chronicle should have their advertising reps sell premium space on this thread. Maybe AHF can secure a premium slot to advertise all those ponies.
[QUOTE=Carolinadreamin’;6756483]
According to the NY Times article, the last injection Humble received (you know, where the syringe and needle “got lost”), did not contain any of the meds as listed on that long list outside of Humble’s stall. Am I reading that correctly? If so, what was in that syringe and has Elizabeth Mandarino stated so?[/QUOTE]
She has stated that it was Legend.
[QUOTE=gumshoe;6756223]
My opinion, it isn’t about the prize money that goes with a ribbon. It isn’t the owners/leasers.
It’s about the trainers. Keep the students’ names at the top of every list, then every kid either wants to buy one of her ponies/horses or every kid wants to be in her barn.
These kids get “groomed” much the way a pedophile “grooms” a child. Tell her how wonderful she is, how special her pony/horse is (the one that has been drugged up by the trainer to be so wonderful). Then the kid outgrows the pony/horse, either because she ages out of the pony or her stellar riding ability, as described by the trainer. She needs a new pony/horse. Guess what? Trainer has the perfect one for her in the barn (also drugged up to be wonderful).
If the kid or her parents catch on to what’s happening, buh-bye. There’s a sucker born every minute and another kid who has been waiting for a spot with this “BNT”.
It’s all about income generating for the trainer. All the rest is just a means to do it.
Edit: I don’t think for a second that this absolves the parents of these kids of any responsibility. It’s about time more kids were required to have more responsibility in the care of their horses. Not just arriving at the barn 10 minutes before a lesson starts to a perfectly groomed and tacked up horse. Ask questions. What is it exactly that I’m paying for with this “meds” charge on my invoice? Parents fully enable it to happen.[/QUOTE]
I totally agree here, especially with the last part. Said pony mom that initiated the protest knew her daughter’s pony was being drugged and allowed the kid to ride anyways, but after her daughter got her ribbons and points is when she said something about it. When I was showing the Children’s Hunters at a LOCAL show, I walked in on my (then) “trainer” with a needle in my lease horse’s vein…I refused to ride him, parents were livid, and we left without showing at all that weekend. It was all my parents could do to afford for me to ride when I was that age and if they can walk away based on ethics and still pay the bill, then so can these people of much more generous means.
Not in EM’s defense or anything, but the protesting client sounds like a piece of work. “I’m not going to pay to haul the pony, because he was going that direction anyways for some other reason.” Ummm, yeah, no, that’s not how it works. “I’m not paying for x, y, and z that I knew the pony was receiving and I didn’t refuse at the time of administration, but after the fact I’m going to say I had a problem with it from the start and refuse to pay.” Again…it doesn’t work like that.
Different industry, but at the Appaloosa World and National shows they test both the winner and one random entry from every class.
[QUOTE=violethorse;6756535]
Does anyone know who EM’s vets are that have provided the scripts for all these injectables? I would love to know who is tending to the vet needs of all those dozens of ponies that she trying to sell/lease. Maybe she has 9 vets to match the 9 lawyers. Really…this is an unbelievable saga. It may set the record on the BB for the most amount of views/comments and the most lawsuits generated from all the comments that have been posted. The Chronicle should have their advertising reps sell premium space on this thread. Maybe AHF can secure a premium slot to advertise all those ponies.[/QUOTE]
I, too, would like to know what vet sells her all that medication. Her bills must be in the thousands each month. And aren’t vets obliged to "first do no harm."And if Humble’s owner comes on and says the vets approved of his looooooong list of daily meds, I would like to point to Dr. Kent Allen’s statement to the New York Times that "
Dr. Allen, who has extensive show-horse experience, said most veterinarians he knew could not imagine using all these drugs, “particularly large amounts of them in multiple combinations.”
[QUOTE=DMK;6756508]
When it comes to testing there isn’t one reason why you couldn’t test winners and test randomly as well. I have always supported testing winners because if you are medicating illegally and not winning, let’s face it, few people are going to emulate your program. If the winners are cheating and being caught that sends a better message than just getting randomly selected. Human nature is to call the latter bad luck, but you will know the former will catch up with you sooner or later.
Why not have a program that randomly targets a few divisions where the winners are automatically tested as well as a random selection of horses. If the testers know they have to test at least 4 divisions, perhaps one unrated, one zone rated and two nationally rated divisions, X horses pinning first through third, then that absolutely takes away the rap that some trainers have that they are being targeted. Add to that X horses randomly tested and youhave your bases covered, for what seems to me to not be any additional cost/change in overall testing procedure.[/QUOTE]
I’m not disagreeing with your thoughts, but one thing I’ve noticed…when the “testers” show up on the show grounds, the news spreads like wildfire. It’s always interesting to me which trainers/barns scratch certain horses, or load up all the horses and go home.
Now, I hate to draw any “conclusions” or anything. 
Vet List
[QUOTE=Limerick;6756596]
I, too, would like to know what vet sells her all that medication. Her bills must be in the thousands each month. And aren’t vets obliged to "first do no harm."And if Humble’s owner comes on and says the vets approved of his looooooong list of daily meds, I would like to point to Dr. Kent Allen’s statement to the New York Times that "
Dr. Allen, who has extensive show-horse experience, said most veterinarians he knew could not imagine using all these drugs, “particularly large amounts of them in multiple combinations.”[/QUOTE]
I reviewed the transcript of the USEF hearing that was linked to this BB by Amberhill…no mention of a vet who is associated with the list of meds that were on the Devon list. I doubt that EM will provide us with the name/s of the vets who prescribed all those but should we ever be privy to that info I would be asking them what they were thinking/doing. Since EM is a New Jersey resident she might use a practice/s there as well as in the Ocala area where she spent the winter. There are also the show vets who are attached to the AA shows in GA and Florida that her horses attended.
I find it rather interesting that the USHJA does not have Drug and Medication committees for either hunter or jumper. You’d think that even if the testing is a USEF activity, USHJA would have a committee on drugging in competition. Even if the purpose is only educational.
I get this from the recent Chronicle article on the new USHJA governance structure and accompanying graphic.
I have used Dex for actual hives shortly before a horse show. (I noticed zero difference in the horse’s attitiude, by the way.) I have no problem with it being used for hives but that shouldn’t happen very often. I think using dex more than once a year is probably suspect. Or maybe you could submit a picture of the horse’s hives with your D&M report.
[QUOTE=Limerick;6756596]
I, too, would like to know what vet sells her all that medication. Her bills must be in the thousands each month. And aren’t vets obliged to "first do no harm."And if Humble’s owner comes on and says the vets approved of his looooooong list of daily meds, I would like to point to Dr. Kent Allen’s statement to the New York Times that "
Dr. Allen, who has extensive show-horse experience, said most veterinarians he knew could not imagine using all these drugs, “particularly large amounts of them in multiple combinations.”[/QUOTE]
Not uncommon at all. Many trainer get a blanket script for all kinds of meds in which they keep on file at many online pharmacies. The trainer bills the clients for the meds. In a lease situation the lessor would be paying for the meds.
A reminder that while it’s fine to discuss this article and its related subjects, please do so without the foul language, personal commentary, etc., to comply with our posting policies.
We’ve edited/removed a few recent posts.
Thanks,
Mod 1
[QUOTE=leyla25;6755793]
the problem is if you out the BNTs and you have a child showing or yourself, the judges will retaliate against you. Some of the BNTs are also judges.[/QUOTE]
Too damned bad, you** hobbiests. If the price of admission to a fun sport is co-signing drugging animals, then it’s time to rethink your definition of fun.
On this thread and the other, I am sympathetic to the folks who make their money in the Hunter Industry (save the trainers). But that does not apply to the amateurs and show parents Who Could Have Done Otherwise.
ETA: And by “you”, I mean the Royal We-- myself included. I do this for fun and I supply the money. If I quit, I take away the incentive to drug horses and snow the owners/funders of the whole game.
[QUOTE=leyla25;6755793]
the problem is if you out the BNTs and you have a child showing or yourself, the judges will retaliate against you. Some of the BNTs are also judges.[/QUOTE]
So … when I read this I wonder why I would ever want to subject my child to this sport, if I cannot count on officials judging fairly. Even if the judges are not biased against me or my child… what is the point if you truly believe there is this level of corruption?
[QUOTE=skydy;6755830]
I think the problem REALLY is, that even if you have leased a pony for your child to show at Devon ,(a competition held under USEF rules) and it drops, convulses and dies at the end of a needle, administered by Elizabeth Mandarino the “trainer”, and you PAY to file a protest with USEF (because something must be wrong yes?), the result is that the “trainer” sues YOU,the person who leased the pony and filed the protest, and USEF throws it’s hands in the air and claims that they can’t do a thing about it.
Do you really believe that reporting to USEF that someone is injecting their horse with a banned substance would have any conequence whatsoever when a dead pony at the end of a needle is beyond USEF’s ability to handle?
The problem does not lie with honest competitors not stepping up to report the doping of horses, but with the USEF that claims that it is unable to punish this behaviour. :no::mad:[/QUOTE]
IMO, the USEF hung the protester out to dry.
Were I an attorney hired by the protester whose job it was to give “odds” on the outcome or damage done by even filing the protest, I’d advise against it.
That’s because (truth aside), the protestor had these things working against her:
A. A deep-pocketed trainer with a litigious history as her opponent. IMO, anyone who goes into litigation without calculating the odds of a countersuit and the cost of that defense hasn’t thought deeply enough.
B. An already murky set of D&M rules.
C. A USEF that has shown itself to side with the trainer-branch of its constituency without fail.
So the USEF has to change for three reasons in light of this case:
-
The D&M rules which have long been known to suck are now known to suck by readers of the NYT as well as the horsey set.
-
The USEF has lost credibility as a private governing body that can police its industry. To the extent that it cares, the public will step in… just as it did with so many other disciplines before this one.
-
The USEF and Mandarino’s 9 lawyers have clearly demonstrated the risk of filing a protest to all would-be whistle blowers. The USEF therefore has an additional problem: Making the protest process viable at all.
If all these drugs remain legal to use, I’d like to see the requirement added to file a D&M report for every drug… and I’d like it to be in a public database.
I also think that USEF needs to consider amplifying the D&M rules to apply to patterns over time and across a whole barn. For example, I have no problem with a single occasion of administration of dex. But I do have a problem with it being administered at every show… especially because I believe it creates a substantial risk to the horse’s health without actually doing anything anyway. So maybe we continue to keep dex legal for a single show… but if you administer it for three shows in a year, that’s an offense.
[QUOTE=Eventer13;6756200]
When I said that, I was talking about the COTHers who have no problem saying “I saw a BNT/BNT’s groom sticking a horse right before a class” but won’t come out here and say who it was. Scott Steward HAS been outed… he’s made it to the D&M list, everyone here knows he has some sketchy drug practices. Its up to them to decide if they want to train with him. But at least its well-known.
If PH wants to put a cheater on their cover, that’s their decision. I don’t get the magazine anymore. But I’m talking about all the other trainers that aren’t getting caught, where someone has seen them inject a horse with a questionable substance or knows of someone (client) that has heard them admit to the practice.
I have heard of several trainers “outed” on the eventing forum for poor training practices, to the point where I won’t clinic with those trainers. Luckily, drugging isn’t a huge problem in that sport (not sure if I’ve ever heard of it happening, actually, although I’m sure it has). But I would have no problem telling everyone here if someone’s working student for an upper level eventer said her horses got a little Ace before their dressage test. Its better than hinting that its happening but not giving anyone the chance to know who to avoid.[/QUOTE]
I think you are missing the point and the power of the Mandarino case.
Whether we are talking about Mandarino being nailed to the wall, or Scott Steward and a magazine being publicly criticized, the point is to make an example of these people and also to show that there are appreciable consequences. PH doesn’t want its broad readership to wonder if they endorse the drugging that goes on in the Hunters, which may be a bit of a surprise to them. And that public has gotten things done in the past-- it got GM to stop calling people fat in his Jumping Critique column, and I think the hue and cry about pictures of riders without helmets has made inroads.
