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New York Times article - USEF and Humble

Hunter/Jumper
#601

[QUOTE=gumshoe;6756223]

If the kid or her parents catch on to what’s happening, buh-bye. There’s a sucker born every minute and another kid who has been waiting for a spot with this “BNT”.

…
Edit: I don’t think for a second that this absolves the parents of these kids of any responsibility. It’s about time more kids were required to have more responsibility in the care of their horses. Not just arriving at the barn 10 minutes before a lesson starts to a perfectly groomed and tacked up horse. Ask questions. What is it exactly that I’m paying for with this “meds” charge on my invoice? Parents fully enable it to happen.[/QUOTE]

IME, parents and some ammies who own horses at full service barns do things that look to me like Active Denial. I believe they purposely don’t ask or dig to deeply.

I say this in part because when I have asked what I consider “normal” questions of trainers and vets working on my horse, they have sometimes been surprised that I wanted to know. This also comes from conversations with owners who complain to me about unclear bills for “meds” and then don’t pursue it when I say “Well, you have an MBA, use your words and ASK for an itemized list.”

#602

[QUOTE=Limerick;6756596]
I, too, would like to know what vet sells her all that medication. Her bills must be in the thousands each month. And aren’t vets obliged to "first do no harm."And if Humble’s owner comes on and says the vets approved of his looooooong list of daily meds, I would like to point to Dr. Kent Allen’s statement to the New York Times that "
Dr. Allen, who has extensive show-horse experience, said most veterinarians he knew could not imagine using all these drugs, “particularly large amounts of them in multiple combinations.”[/QUOTE]

Going after vets is one way, but I think most of us wouldn’t like the consequences. I like being able to own a bottle of bute or a vial of banamine. That goes away when you hold vets to the letter of the law, which, by the way, already requires prescriptions for all meds sold.

And I think BNTs buy there meds from more than one vet. Yes, plenty of vets know that they are selling kinds and quantities of medications that. They wrestle with the problem. But trainers can game them, too.

#603

Maybe it’s time to give up on the USEF. The USEF has had numerous opportunities to show its own membership that it is serious about horse welfare and anti-doping, but the facts show otherwise. The USEF will always side with insiders and money.

This year, we had the Humble incident, the Uriaco (?)/Deslauriers/Clark incident, and the rather tawdry spectacle of the eventing chef d’equipe hiring his mistress as an assistant. When that last thing happens in the real world, as with Arkansas football coach Bobby Petrino, the corrupt cad is shown the door pronto. Not so with the USEF. Not a peep from them about it, and also not a peep from the ‘industry news leader’ known as the Chronicle of the Horse.

The vast majority of the USEF membership, just like the vast majority of the equestrian community, which includes all of us gathered here, does not support the USEF in terms of how it handled these incidents.

Perhaps its time to give up on the USEF and equestrian media. Does anyone really believe John Long and his organization wants real change? I’m sure Jane Clark’s decision to send her horses and money overseas was more of a blow than anything any large group of ordinary USEF members could come up with.

Maybe it’s time to get state/local law enforcement, local animal control/welfare and state/local licensing/professional boards involved. You’ve got a traveling carnival of controlled medications and syringes and unlicensed veterinary activity and child endangerment – and they’re coming to your town soon.

Maybe the USEF would start to listen if outside agencies – with legal authority and powers of arrest and enforcement – got involved.

This is essentially what happened with the sport of cycling. The UCI did nothing about doping, so LE stepped in. This happened in Spain with Operation Puerto, and most recently in the US with USADA and the Postal Service case. There are a number of cyclists and hangers-on who avoid certain European countries as a result – if they show up, they risk arrest.

Sometimes change takes a real shake-up. With USEF, we clearly have a group at the top of the food chain that likes things the way they are with a strong interest in protecting their fiefdom.

#604

Well, I have heard that Florida was investigating one of the Doctor Feelgoods.

#605

Yes, vineyridge, but that’s due to this lawsuit. The vet was found negligent and liable for malpractice, and the case was then taken to the state agency in charge of professional licensing.

I referred to this case earlier as I made a public records request on it. The horse’s vet records are in the file, and if this horse’s injection regimen is anything approaching SOP for a show hunter, h/j land is not a place of evidence-based veterinary care.

#606

When I was showing the Children’s Hunters at a LOCAL show, I walked in on my (then) “trainer” with a needle in my lease horse’s vein…I refused to ride him, parents were livid, and we left without showing at all that weekend. It was all my parents could do to afford for me to ride when I was that age and if they can walk away based on ethics and still pay the bill, then so can these people of much more generous means.

Good for you. That took some bravery and gumption. You are good people and hope you go far in life.

Mainly I think we should stop worshipping at the alter of people who do this crap. YOU are a horsewoman. The names that get bounced around here that end up on suspension lists are greedy jerks. Time to give them the middle finger and stop being awe of their awesome horses and rides. Load my horse up with enough crap and maybe I could win some $.75 ribbons too.

Boo when they come in the ring. Roll your eyes when they prattle on about how nice this horse or that horse is. Give them the same stuck up snob treatment some poor kid on an arab with a dirty saddle pad would be shown. Laugh at their clients. If you are in their barn, move in the middle of the night and don’t pay your bill. You’ll probably need the cash to actually get your horse trained by someone good.

#607

A while back, I had acquired a fairly nice, but hard to rude 17 hh. NZ TB. I leased him out to a Jr. And had in the contract no showing above 3’6,because he had hock changes. She was with a fairly BNT here in Ga, and they figured out that the horse had some scope. She started shing him in Fla, Miss, and Ga, and started pointing him towards WIHS Children’s Jumpers. Then a friend told me how they were jumping him 5 ft at home, and BNT was actually going around bragging to others at shows how much meds he was giving to the horse. Then the girls mom calls me to say that the horse was throwing even the BNT off. I took the horse back, and since I was pregnant, I had to put the horse in training - retraining. His brain was totally fried. It took a long time to get him back again. BNT is still a BNT here in Ga. My horse ended up breaking his hock in the pasture, and had to be pts. Was it connected? Who knows, but it makes me sick knowing what measures some trainers go to, all in name of winning.

#608

[QUOTE=JER;6757002]
Maybe it’s time to give up on the USEF. The USEF has had numerous opportunities to show its own membership that it is serious about horse welfare and anti-doping, but the facts show otherwise. The USEF will always side with insiders and money.

This year, we had the Humble incident, the Uriaco (?)/Deslauriers/Clark incident, and the rather tawdry spectacle of the eventing chef d’equipe hiring his mistress as an assistant. When that last thing happens in the real world, as with Arkansas football coach Bobby Petrino, the corrupt cad is shown the door pronto. Not so with the USEF. Not a peep from them about it, and also not a peep from the ‘industry news leader’ known as the Chronicle of the Horse.

The vast majority of the USEF membership, just like the vast majority of the equestrian community, which includes all of us gathered here, does not support the USEF in terms of how it handled these incidents.

Perhaps its time to give up on the USEF and equestrian media. Does anyone really believe John Long and his organization wants real change? I’m sure Jane Clark’s decision to send her horses and money overseas was more of a blow than anything any large group of ordinary USEF members could come up with.

Maybe it’s time to get state/local law enforcement, local animal control/welfare and state/local licensing/professional boards involved. You’ve got a traveling carnival of controlled medications and syringes and unlicensed veterinary activity and child endangerment – and they’re coming to your town soon.

Maybe the USEF would start to listen if outside agencies – with legal authority and powers of arrest and enforcement – got involved.

This is essentially what happened with the sport of cycling. The UCI did nothing about doping, so LE stepped in. This happened in Spain with Operation Puerto, and most recently in the US with USADA and the Postal Service case. There are a number of cyclists and hangers-on who avoid certain European countries as a result – if they show up, they risk arrest.

Sometimes change takes a real shake-up. With USEF, we clearly have a group at the top of the food chain that likes things the way they are with a strong interest in protecting their fiefdom.[/QUOTE]

I agree this IS NOT a new problem. USEF and the former AHSA have been well aware of this problem for years and years and yet at the constant urging of members have refused to get serious on the issue. At the least, USEF has been negligent and at the worst, criminal. IMO the attitude and unethical practices of EM and countless others like her are a direct result of the unwillingness of the USEF to abide by it very own mission statement.

#609

[QUOTE=JER;6757098]

I referred to this case earlier as I made a public records request on it. The horse’s vet records are in the file, and if this horse’s injection regimen is anything approaching SOP for a show hunter, h/j land is not a place of evidence-based veterinary care.[/QUOTE] It’s not “h/j land”, it’s hunter-land. The barns I’ve been in or around that are focused on jumpers aren’t injecting dex/magnesium/etc to turn their horses into lethargic robots, or double-dosing legend to get the hack winner.

Many have their issues, no way around that, but excessive administration of sedating drugs is not one of them.

#610

[QUOTE=Carolinadreamin’;6756483]
According to the NY Times article, the last injection Humble received (you know, where the syringe and needle “got lost”), did not contain any of the meds as listed on that long list outside of Humble’s stall. Am I reading that correctly? If so, what was in that syringe and has Elizabeth Mandarino stated so?[/QUOTE]

And that’s the scary part ~ what was the pony receiving that was NOT listed? I mean, the list only had the drugs on it that are considered “legal” and that list was bad enough, but it doesn’t even cover the “illegal/untestable” drugs potentially being administered…

ETA: While Mandarino claims it was Legend in the syringe, well, we know her track record for telling the truth. If it really was Legend, I’d love to see her 9 lawyers up against Bayer’s corporate lawyers.

#611

[QUOTE=wanderlust;6757267]
It’s not “h/j land”, it’s hunter-land. The barns I’ve been in or around that are focused on jumpers aren’t injecting dex/magnesium/etc to turn their horses into lethargic robots, or double-dosing legend to get the hack winner.

Many have their issues, no way around that, but excessive administration of sedating drugs is not one of them.[/QUOTE]

I am not disputing quieting drugs in hunters, but you are blind if you don’t see drugging in jumpers.

#612

Not really any demand of lethargic robots in the jumpers - could be a hard run for your money in the jumpoffs :wink:

On the serious side. It is really hard to watch the video of this poor pony knowing what he got injected with on a regular basis. I sincerely hope that there will be a change that makes this practice stop. I am also very happy that I´m located where I am and that the rules here is zerotolerance.

#613

[QUOTE=wanderlust;6757267]
It’s not “h/j land”, it’s hunter-land. The barns I’ve been in or around that are focused on jumpers aren’t injecting dex/magnesium/etc to turn their horses into lethargic robots, or double-dosing legend to get the hack winner.

Many have their issues, no way around that, but excessive administration of sedating drugs is not one of them.[/QUOTE]

I included the ‘j’ part of ‘h/j’ because Mario Deslauriers’s hard-partying horse was a jumper, not a hunter.

The injections I referred to with the FL vet were not about sedation, but about joint injections with unusual substances, which could not possibly have any therapeutic value when used that way.

#614

[QUOTE=JER;6757002]
Maybe it’s time to give up on the USEF. The USEF has had numerous opportunities to show its own membership that it is serious about horse welfare and anti-doping, but the facts show otherwise. The USEF will always side with insiders and money.

This year, we had the Humble incident, the Uriaco (?)/Deslauriers/Clark incident, and the rather tawdry spectacle of the eventing chef d’equipe hiring his mistress as an assistant. When that last thing happens in the real world, as with Arkansas football coach Bobby Petrino, the corrupt cad is shown the door pronto. Not so with the USEF. Not a peep from them about it, and also not a peep from the ‘industry news leader’ known as the Chronicle of the Horse.

The vast majority of the USEF membership, just like the vast majority of the equestrian community, which includes all of us gathered here, does not support the USEF in terms of how it handled these incidents.

Perhaps its time to give up on the USEF and equestrian media. Does anyone really believe John Long and his organization wants real change? I’m sure Jane Clark’s decision to send her horses and money overseas was more of a blow than anything any large group of ordinary USEF members could come up with.

Maybe it’s time to get state/local law enforcement, local animal control/welfare and state/local licensing/professional boards involved. You’ve got a traveling carnival of controlled medications and syringes and unlicensed veterinary activity and child endangerment – and they’re coming to your town soon.

Maybe the USEF would start to listen if outside agencies – with legal authority and powers of arrest and enforcement – got involved.

This is essentially what happened with the sport of cycling. The UCI did nothing about doping, so LE stepped in. This happened in Spain with Operation Puerto, and most recently in the US with USADA and the Postal Service case. There are a number of cyclists and hangers-on who avoid certain European countries as a result – if they show up, they risk arrest.

Sometimes change takes a real shake-up. With USEF, we clearly have a group at the top of the food chain that likes things the way they are with a strong interest in protecting their fiefdom.[/QUOTE]

The Pennsylvania State Police are still investigating I believe. http://www.ratemyhorsepro.com/news/amber-hill-farm-owner-under-criminal-investigation.aspx

#615

[QUOTE=amberhill;6754834]
Here is the link to the USEF Transcript of the Humble (Kristen Williams) Hearing just to prove I have NOTHING to hide:

http://amberhillponies.com/Amber_Hill_Farm/USEF_Williams_Transcript.html

Take note on how the hearing committee drills her.[/QUOTE]

It works for me with windows 7, little hard to load but I can read it…or some of the 136 pages of back and forth.

I would hardly call that transcript much of a defense. EMs lawyer touted “the protester has to prove it, we don’t have to produce anything”. Then it was pointed out the toxicology was in question because the necropsy was not performed for 36 hours and no blood was pulled in time to get signifigant information…they had to use degraded 36 hours post mortem tissue samples. The body was not even delivered to New Bolton for 12 hours outside the window for viable blood samples.

So when that pathlologist dropped his probes and tools and excitedly called halfway thru the necropsy to report “emerging lung disease”? At least 3 days after the Pony died.

Thats just the first 10 pages.

Who needs RateMyHorsePro? Just read what EM puts up, nobody to sue on that one.

The Pa State Police are involved, no idea to what extent at this point but USEF did rely on them for some help.

#616

[QUOTE=Pennywell Bay;6757299]
I am not disputing quieting drugs in hunters, but you are blind if you don’t see drugging in jumpers.[/QUOTE]

Ditto…

#617

[QUOTE=KellyS;6757273]
And that’s the scary part ~ what was the pony receiving that was NOT listed? I mean, the list only had the drugs on it that are considered “legal” and that list was bad enough, but it doesn’t even cover the “illegal/untestable” drugs potentially being administered…

ETA: While Mandarino claims it was Legend in the syringe, well, we know her track record for telling the truth. If it really was Legend, I’d love to see her 9 lawyers up against Bayer’s corporate lawyers.[/QUOTE]

Why should she bother with Bayer if she settled with the insurance company? Do we know if they paid out a claim on Humble? Also, since the syringe was not seized, along with whatever was in it, there would not be a way that EM could prove that Legend was administered. No evidence, no suit…in this case it cuts both ways. Nobody knows what was administered except EM and that only benefits her claim that she did nothing wrong.

#618

[QUOTE=JER;6757304]
Mario Deslauriers’s hard-partying horse[/QUOTE]

:lol::lol::lol:

Have I told you lately that I loff you?

I pretty much agree w/ you on USEF at this point BTW. I’ve defended them for decades, but they threw that protester under the bus and I for one don’t appreciate it none! :wink:

One thing I did want to throw out there for consideration, in terms of bringing some pressure to bear on USEF - and I don’t know HOW this could be done, but I assume that it COULD (and that the NYT article wouldn’t hurt) - is how about getting word to the USOC somehow that the NGB for equestrian sport is doing absolutely-effing-nothing to effect cleanup of the sport, and in view of recent decisions, said Federation has effectively rendered its protest procedure null and void?

I hate to play this kind of hard ball, I’d far rather USEF stood up for itself and did the right thing - but if we could push USEF to the point where they believed their standing as the official NGB was affected, THEN we might see some change.

#619

[QUOTE=JER;6757098]
Yes, vineyridge, but that’s due to this lawsuit. The vet was found negligent and liable for malpractice, and the case was then taken to the state agency in charge of professional licensing.

I referred to this case earlier as I made a public records request on it. The horse’s vet records are in the file, and if this horse’s injection regimen is anything approaching SOP for a show hunter, h/j land is not a place of evidence-based veterinary care.[/QUOTE]

About time somebody stepped up to the plate. Vet named is, frankly, not a surprise at all. Whatever else, owner (who has had one great and many very nice ones) should be congratulated for having the guts to openly proceed with it against a very busy and well known show vet. One there have always been some whispers about. Actually used him once for a minor procedure when horse was on the road for 3 weeks-bill was 3 times what it would have cost at home.

IMO there is a worse problem with overmedicating and using multiple drug combinations on sore horses in any discipline then quieting them and Jumpers would be just as much, or more, likely to need a little “help” as any Hunter.

#620

[QUOTE=violethorse;6757352]
Why should she bother with Bayer if she settled with the insurance company? Do we know if they paid out a claim on Humble? Also, since the syringe was not seized, along with whatever was in it, there would not be a way that EM could prove that Legend was administered. No evidence, no suit…in this case it cuts both ways. Nobody knows what was administered except EM and that only benefits her claim that she did nothing wrong.[/QUOTE]

She claims the last injection she gave Humble was Legend…and then Humble dropped dead. As a horse owner who has had the vet give my horse Legend, after surgery as part of his recovery, I want to know why a seemingly healthy horse dropped dead after getting Legend. Since Elizabeth Mandarino seems so enthusiastic to bring forth lawsuits, why isn’t she suing Bayer, the manufacturer of Legend??

Is Bayer covering something up about Legend? Does the product need to be taken off the market after the sudden death of Humble after, according to Elizabeth Mandarino of Amber Hill Farm, and be investigated?? Is their product dangerous?? Will my horse drop dead just like Humble did??

We should all be contacting Bayer and demanding answers from them regarding the allegations as put forth by Elizabeth Mandarino.

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