Newbie Advice Needed - Daughter wants to do more in Hunter/Jumper

[trubandloki]

@HeelsDown123, a very simple way to better understand what this lease covers and involves is to ask the trainer if you can have a copy of the lease contract so you can look over it to understand things better.

I would think that a barn of this level would have a clear contract covering this.

I would think a full lease would include some non-lesson ride time, along with those two lessons per week.

In my opinion, I think leasing is a good first step. It allows you to get your feet wet with more time commitment, the additional cost of owning, etc. It also gives you the out of ending the lease if your daughter decides that maybe riding this much is not quite what she wants.

[Lost_Shoe]

OP, I suggest reading “A Man Walks into a Barn” by Chad Oldfather, and for your daughter, I suggest the US Pony Club Manual of Horsemanship D Level (and C Level) by Susan Harris. Even if Pony Club is not an option, reading and referring to the manuals is very helpful. There is so much more to the world of riding horses than A-rated showing!

[ShenanAnna]

Don’t get over-focused on shows. What really develops a rider is time, particularly on a variety of horses and ponies. Taking care of them, just being around them teaches a child about their wants, needs, foibles.

A large prey animal is outside the experience of most children, who are only exposed to small predator animals (dogs and cats). Learning how horses think, behave, and, most importantly, react is absolutely critical to be a good rider and, of course, anything resembling a true horseman.

[trubandloki]

I think the pony club manuals are great, but do go into it knowing that there are lots of jokes for those in pony club about doing things the pony club way. Some of the stuff in there is not quote modern way accurate.
Still a great read.

[Railbird]

@HeelsDown123

Honestly, more so at the barn we left before, but also a little at this current barn we get the feeling that if we don’t lease a horse, they might start not allowing her to ride the nicer horses or progress as quickly. It’s almost like the barns around here give you a taste of riding nice horses — as the carrot, and it’s almost an unspoken rule that if you then don’t lease or buy a horse with their approval or involvement within a year or two, you’re going to be put on a different track and are just not going to be able to ride the same horses or progress as fast — as the stick. Overall, it’s a bit of an odd feeling for us parents!

Consider it more, if I am going to make another analogy to other sports, that when you start taking tennis lessons they will have demo rackets available to help make it more accessible without a big buy-in. Once you are playing 5 days a week, they’re going to want you to purchase your own equipment because the purpose of that shared demo equipment is not to be used by everyone daily and regularly replaced- if everyone only used those rackets all the time, the place would be going through them left and right. When you talk about horses, they are much more sensitive to use than another type of sporting equipment. The more demanding of a lesson (the higher level of rider) the more wear and tear on their body. It’s not fair to expect a horse to jump daily, or twice a day (many lesson horses will do two lessons a day, one very light with very beginners and one longer/faster) since it would likely damage their joints, so if all the riders there only used lesson horses, then the poor horses would be expected to jump twice a day every day and would likely have career ending injuries after about 6 months. The barn isn’t withholding higher level work because they want more money, necessarily, but their cost to keep a lesson horse can’t be supported with more advanced riders still using the lesson horses. I know it is a big cost committment, but that comes from the fact that our sport requires us to keep in mind the welfare of the other athlete.

You said it yourself- 5 lessons a week is less than the cost to take care of a horse. The barns may be willing to subsidize the entry level to an extent, especially since the horses can do more lessons at the lowest levels, but at a certain point it is also a business that can’t be losing money just to allow its clients to participate

[GreyDes]

@HeelsDown123 - It sounds like you’re on the right track with figuring out a way to get her more saddle time!

FYI - here’s another older thread you may want to read that covers the economic reasons why so many programs are pushing for the half/full lease for riders to progress.

Are the days of lesson horses over?

I find lesson programs are going away. They are being replaced by training programs. The difference being the former caters to clientele that may be beginning in this industry and/or do not have a horse. The latter caters towards individuals established in the industry that own a horse or lease a horse. In many of the barns local to me that shift happened decades ago. Most of the serious competition barns (eventing/dressage) around me do not have lesson horses. The trainer/instructor may have a…

If you look on some of the older threads in the H/J section you’ll see a lot of people talking about being priced out of higher levels of competition given the current cost structure.

I have no idea what your financial situation is and obviously costs will vary widely based on location and level. You or she may want to explore different disciplines at some point both to have options and to see the cost differences.

A few posters mentioned cost points across different disciplines. As a rough guide from most to least expensive:

• Hunters
• Jumpers
• Dressage
• Eventing
• Endurance/Competitive Trail

Best of luck with your next steps!

[fledermaus]

Despite me knowing nothing about h/j competition, I will stick my oar in:

I grew up in the 1970’s in California. Horse keeping was not an investment in a child’s future, it was simply something horse crazy kids did with their spare time. We kept our cheap grade horses in our backyards or at rundown rental stables and rode every second we had. We rode to the 7-11 for slurpees, we rode in orchards and picked fruit from horseback, we swam our horses in local ponds. We never had lessons, our shows were at best regional, and we all had a wonderful wonderful time.

I learned things then that are very hard to acquire under a regimen entirely controlled by adults. There is nothing like being entirely responsible for your horse’s well-being and safety. Nothing like getting you and your horse out of a jam you got yourselves into – totally alone. Not to mention, how to stick on your horse no matter what!

Coming back to horses eight years ago, one difference among many I found, was that children no longer played on and with their best-friend horses on summer days that went on forever. Nope, riding was a Youth Sport with everything regimented, ruled, costumed, and very expensive. Horses are now a means to an end – winning – not an end in themselves.

Your daughter may be ambitious and driven to excel, but has she ever had the time to braid flowers into her own dear horse’s mane? Play Red Rover with her mounted friends when no adults are watching? Stay up all night with her colicky horse? Learn the difference between a good bale of hay and a poor one? How to see which leg a horse is lame on? How to help a green horse to do something they’re afraid of? The world of horses is deep and wide, and knowing how to look good guiding a finished horse around an arena at a show is an inch deep pool in comparison to what there is to explore and learn.

I’m not advising anything in particular, just noticing you are seeing the horse world through a narrow lens. I would not trade those horse crazy barn rat days of my youth for anything. It makes me sad to see children who only know how to compete on horses, and nothing else.

If my daughter had been horse crazy (which she sure wasn’t), I would have started her off like I did, with a quiet horse we owned, that she could take care of herself and ride where she pleased. Lessons would be in addition to that. If she was ambitious we might trade up to a horse who could meet her where she was.

I know a novice mom who bought her ambitious nine year old an older Arabian cross gelding, with whom she eventually won everything within a regional radius. By that time she had to retire him she was sixteen, teaching the beginner kids at her lesson barn, and riding greenies for her trainer.

She did have room to keep him at home, which of course was a big help.

Just a different perspective.

[NoSuchPerson]

@HeelsDown123

Honestly, more so at the barn we left before, but also a little at this current barn we get the feeling that if we don’t lease a horse, they might start not allowing her to ride the nicer horses or progress as quickly. It’s almost like the barns around here give you a taste of riding nice horses — as the carrot, and it’s almost an unspoken rule that if you then don’t lease or buy a horse with their approval or involvement within a year or two, you’re going to be put on a different track and are just not going to be able to ride the same horses or progress as fast — as the stick. Overall, it’s a bit of an odd feeling for us parents!

Railbird already said it better than I will, but I’m just adding my agreement to that post. If your daughter wants to continue advancing in this sport, then leasing is the next step. Not taking that step indicates to the barn that you are not Serious Parents. (No crime in that, lots of parents can’t be Serious Parents due to time or financial constraints.)

But, nicer, more expensive horses are typically reserved for those who are Serious. It’s a reasonable and completely justifiable economic decision on the part of the barn. Your daughter may be riding a nice horse now simply because he’s available at the moment and she’s qualified to give him a good ride, but you can bet that he will be leased out as soon as they find someone to do so and he will no longer be available for lessons.

[Railbird]

Also recommend buying With Purpose: The Balmoral Standard: Carleton Brooks, Traci Brooks, Rennie Dyball: 9781732963276: Amazon.com: Books

Which @Tha_Ridge told me has some good high level explanations of the ins and outs of a top level program and includes some expectations of parents of their students.

[HeelsDown123]

She already has all the US Pony Club Manual of Horsemanship books and likes them (but honestly doesn’t love them). She also reads tons of horse themed books all the time.

[HeelsDown123]

Yes, they will have this available. We just haven’t made it that far yet as the overall financial commitment was really, really high.

[HeelsDown123]

Agreed. I think maybe telling them her goal was to ride at a NCAA level in college prompted some of this. This is certainly our fault, but I also believe telling them she’s serios about her riding and not just here to play on pony’s is something they needed to hear directly (which they mostly already knew).

She just needs more saddle time, and hopefully we can get that in an affordable fashion.

[Tha_Ridge]

Yes, the book that @Railbird mentioned is adult-oriented and not so in the weeds that you’ll be deathly bored, but it will give you a very realistic idea of the training, care, and management that goes into these animals and showing—and perhaps give a bit more insight as to why you must own or lease an animal to bring your daughter’s riding to the next level.

[HeelsDown123]

Yes, this makes sense. I think we’re eventually going to have to make a decision between:

1. More seat time at an affordable cost, meaning 3-4 days of riding each week on multiple horses and moderate horses at horse shows or even a half-lease type format

2. We go all in with a higher end horse lease that sets her up for better performance at horse shows.

From what all I have read in this forum today alone, I honestly lean toward a moderate, half-lease type structure (if they will even offer us this) and us putting more $ toward more lessons or riding days without instruction and more shows (regardless of whether they are A-rated or not). Or just upping the riding days and shows, but let them give her any horse they like and we’ll just see how she does. It sounds like Time/Experience with horses at this age is more valuable than Show Performance or Show Level (A vs. Non-Rated).

[trubandloki]

@HeelsDown123

Yes, they will have this available. We just haven’t made it that far yet as the overall financial commitment was really, really high.

Right, ask them for a blank copy (though with amounts written in), so you can read it to understand it better. So you as a family can discuss it and decide if it is financially doable and time doable, etc.
They should be more than willing.

[HeelsDown123]

Yeah, this is ideal. Reminds me of when my neighborhood friends and I would jump on our bikes at 7:30am, go all over town and do all kinds of crazy things, and be back home at 6pm for dinner! Unfortunately kids these days just don’t get those opportunities in mid-sized cities, it’s way more structured and supervised nowadays. I think you can still get those experiences in more rural, non-suburban areas but we just don’t live in one of those areas unfortunately.

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

@Railbird–this is a great post.

OP, if you’re not comforable with the financial commitment this entails, it doesn’t mean that your daughter can’t ride, is a bad rider, or that she can’t find more opportunities to ride later on in different ways. Have an honest conversation with the trainer.

But people are right that it’s not like the barn isn’t necessarily “milking” for more money (although there are certainly fair and unfair lease contracts out there and ethical and unethical barns), but to play at the higher levels in the hunters requires considerably more than what even the average upper-upper-middle-class family can afford. It’s not that tennis, cheer, and hockey aren’t costly, but if you put in a substantial chunk of change, you can play in the “big leagues” with your kid that may only get you a taste of horse showing.

Because training and maintaining an equestrian athlete–in an ethical fashion–is very costly on the part of the barn.

Years ago, even before my time, people have said it was more common to have horses in lessons jump high frequently (and all wear the same saddles, with minimal vet care and maintenance) but that wasn’t great for the horses.

[HeelsDown123]

Don’t get me wrong, we’re up for increasing the budget to help her with her dream. But it has to be affordable (not crazy expensive) and we have to be confident we’re getting something in return. I’m hoping we can find a happy medium for the next year or two, then revisit again (see options in a different reply above).

[Tha_Ridge]

@HeelsDown123

Or just upping the riding days and shows, but let them give her any horse they like and we’ll just see how she does.

This is where I’m not quite sure you’re understanding—very, very, very few barns (if any) allow little Susie to ride more than two times a week without owning or leasing a horse. Even if you wanted to lesson 5x a week and go to every horse show on a school horse, most barns would say no to that. Their revenue, like it or not, does not come from lessons; it comes from converting serious lesson kids to kids who pursue the sport in a serious way—which as you are learning is very different. There is no “wrong” answer here for you or your family, but you need to temper your expectations. Also note that a half-lease would only be three days—one more day of riding—per week.

[HeelsDown123]

Understood, thank you. At least with a half lease, we wouldn’t bear the full financial risk of unexpected issues (that we aren’t going to be able to foresee very well), she would increase her riding time by 50% per week, and she would have a really good shot at getting a good horse at a show.

Unfortunately the price of a full lease of this particular horse just feels like it’s too much for her age and for where she is right now in her progression.