No Oxers In Short/Long Stirrup Divisions?

[Princess_Sparkles]

Guess I will be a dissenter here and support the OP.

We have quite a few local schooling show circuits near where I live, and I have attended all of them at one time or another. There are ALWAYS oxers in the 2’3" division, and nearly always oxers in an OPEN 2’0" division. Novice, short stirrup, etc 2’0" classes may or may not have oxers, depending on the show management decisions. Heck, our rated provincial circuit 2’0" division has oxers.

It sounds like the OP’s divisions are open ones, so I would expect oxers in both of them. I rode the 2’0" and 2’3" heights for years because I had bad show nerves and got intimidated. I always had oxers to contend with.

I also think that the people are complaining purely because it suits them and not because of any real or even perceived rule infraction. If they jumped them no problem at the first show, they should have been able to to them at the next show. It is not up to the show to cater to specific barn’s demands. Yes, the OP could have chosen to in this case, run the division and make $$ off them, but I cannot believe the vitriol being spewed here about what a MEANY the OP is because he/she chose not to do that. Seriously? I had shows as a kid where I was literally shaking in my saddle and my horse was acting up, and NEVER did any coach of mine demand the show alter its plan for me. And if they had asked and been declined, I certainly would have understood that.

Next time I go to a show and see a jump I don’t like I’m going to ask if the show can change it for me. They will get my entry fee money that way, and gosh, it would be so nice of them, wouldn’t it??

If a student is having a bad day with their mount, it is a coach’s responsibility to find a way to give them a positive experience. I have shown more than once where I ended up schooling over fences and just flatting in some classes because my nerves got the better of me. My coach had a good over fences session with me and my horse and I had a good experience. How is it the show’s responsibility to make this happen, rather than each individual coach?

I don’t think the OP was wrong to refuse to remove the oxers, and if she chose to lose the revenue from those classes, so be it. It certainly doesn’t make her a horrible person crushing the dreams of poor, defenceless children. Give me a break. The kids are there competing, to win or lose–they should also understand that your horse having a bad day or a scary jump being in the ring is part of competing.

[Equitational]

[QUOTE=M. O’Connor;8232461]
Quiz time:

Would this be a legal schooling jump at a USEF show?

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii168/MCL2057/Screenshot%202015-07-17%2013.07.56_zpsgea93v1g.png

For jumpers?

For hunters?

Would this be a legal show jump in either ring?

Why/Why not?[/QUOTE]

I didn’t build that particular jump. It was from a horse trials the morning before my show.
http://christiebsphotography.com/CamHJ/HJ/FrameSet.htm This was from my 2’ jumper class. Legal or not? Educate me.

[vxf111]

PS who ever called her a meanie or said she was crushing the kids’ dreams?

I think people have been awfully realistic and not harsh at all.

She is right, that complaint about oxers is not founded in the rules. But she could also lose most/all of her business if she doesn’t set courses that are what her clients want. She can now decide where she’s going to draw the line and how hard she’ll hold it and she understands the consequences.

I really don’t see any undo criticism or personal attack necessitating a defense.

[vxf111]

I also don’t think for year end awards it matters if one show had XYZ and another didn’t (as long as what was used in all shows was within the rules). There might a hack class where the judge calls for a halt. The next show, a difference judge might not. Should we throw out that division for year end awards because one show turned out to be “harder” than another.

Also it could be that although there were oxers at the first show, their placement felt (whether it actually was or just felt that way) softer and more forgiving. Or the particularly way you built those oxers was more like what your customers expected/are accustomed to.

If it was me, and these classes have any kids/beginner riders-- I’d lose the oxers going forward and stand firm on setting to height. Revise your divisions for next year. Create one division for beginner/re-riders with no oxers. Create another one that is open and specify that oxers may be included.

[Aven]

It is interesting that in the Eventing forum there is a thread where most of the posters are all saying that the OP should just deal and that shows are hard enough to run. The OP’s point was shouldn’t people who run shows want to cater a little to the competitors to get events to fill up. She got jumped on. Here people are saying that the OP should cater to make sure people keep coming.

I think there is a line. I personally think that oxers are just fine in open classes. Most schooling shows I took students too had little oxers in most courses and no one seemed to think anything of it. Then again I don’t think you should be showing past tiny jumps and SS if you can’t handle a little oxer. But I am crotchety like that. When I started showing back in the day the lowest class you could find was 2’9 or 3 foot. We all survived It is nice things are more inviting now but at some point the bar should stop being lowered.

[vxf111]

[QUOTE=Aven;8232508]
It is interesting that in the Eventing forum there is a thread where most of the posters are all saying that the OP should just deal and that shows are hard enough to run. The OP’s point was shouldn’t people who run shows want to cater a little to the competitors to get events to fill up. She got jumped on. Here people are saying that the OP should cater to make sure people keep coming.

I think there is a line. I personally think that oxers are just fine in open classes. Most schooling shows I took students too had little oxers in most courses and no one seemed to think anything of it. Then again I don’t think you should be showing past tiny jumps and SS if you can’t handle a little oxer. But I am crotchety like that. When I started showing back in the day the lowest class you could find was 2’9 or 3 foot. We all survived It is nice things are more inviting now but at some point the bar should stop being lowered.[/QUOTE]

Here’s the critical difference. Post #1 OP says “Shows are grass roots level, mostly entry level beginner riders.” That’s a very different scenario than, say, an event that starts at BN. The OP is pretty clearly talking about very basic-skill little kids. This is supposed to be a fun show type of thing, not La Boule. Different expectations. I agree with you that regular shows should not be watering down to meet competitors but this is pretty clearly a beginner kids on lesson ponies type of group that these shows are aimed at.

[Aven]

Yes I got that. That was the sort of schooling shows out to start at. If there is a cross rail division (which I believe there was) kids who can’t handle a 2 foot box can still plunk around a course. Maybe it is regional, but I can’t say I have seen courses with no oxers at the 2’3 height. I am pretty sure training hunter, which is 2 foot, is all oxers…

I still stand by the idea if you can’t canter/step over a few 2 foot or smaller boxes you likely should stay in the cross rail division. Its not like it makes a difference to the horses (or at least it shouldn’t, and if it does I hazard that horse shouldn’t be showing) its only riders. Overly babying them does them a disservice. Once they are out with a few miles let them out of cross rails. Students only make a big deal if their coaches do. We went out hunting, hacking, hunter paces etc. As long as the basics are there and the horses are sound its good. If a horse is having a bad day ask if its possible to go in hor con cours with the oxers removed.

If its literally for fun and no test competence is involved or warranted then just rent a ring and go school with your barn. I am a weanie as I get older over solid fences but I would go school with a friend on a cross country course so I could pick and choose the least intimidating (to me) jumps.

It just smacks of making it super easy so even people who can’t really do it can still go round and get a ribbon. Its ok to not be able to go round if your horse is having a bad day. Its life with a big animal with opinions of its own.

(dog people have a saying I love that is trotted out for all levels ‘train don’t complain’)

[vxf111]

Clearly it’s regionaly because around here everything 2’0 and under would be in the “side ring” and there are never oxers there. All classes for beginner riders would be there. Everything in the main ring would have oxers, even at 2’3 and that’s where the green horse classes would go.

So it’s ok to have soft courses in the crossrail divisions but then from then on out, do or die? That makes no sense to me. You’ll just end up with everyone in the crossrail division and no one will ever move up/out and your next step up class won’t fill. I mean, why not go right from crossrails to 3’6 in that case? Suck it up, buttercup.

At the end of the day, little local shows like this are fulfilling many needs, and one of them is having the classes that riders in the area want. That’s one of the great things about those types of shows. Your riders are ready for oxers at the 2’0? Super, offer it. Your riders need 20 classes of groundpoles? Great do that. If riders want real consistency and set divisions that are uniform across the US they can go to shows that use the USEF specifications. The type of show the OP is offering fills a need for riders who still want a fun time and to feel like they’re competing but who aren’t ready for and probably never will get to an AA show. Making her shows harder won’t really effect the watering down of overall quality because likely few of her customers have much in the way of aspirations beyond these local shows. And that’s ok. That’s what these shows are for.

By your logic I guess we should ban leadline. Talk about watering it down, those kids don’t jump any oxers

[Go_Fish]

@Princess Sparkles;8232478

Next time I go to a show and see a jump I don’t like I’m going to ask if the show can change it for me. They will get my entry fee money that way, and gosh, it would be so nice of them, wouldn’t it??

If you can’t jump an oxer at 2’3" then you’re not ready to show at that level. Move down to a smaller jump class and then go practice more at home.

[phoenixrises]

[QUOTE=Equitational;8232480]
I didn’t build that particular jump. It was from a horse trials the morning before my show.
http://christiebsphotography.com/CamHJ/HJ/FrameSet.htm This was from my 2’ jumper class. Legal or not? Educate me.[/QUOTE]

I am not a course designer but I believe the back rail can never be lower than the highest point on the front rail, which this jump is. I’m sure she’ll come back and say if I’m right.

[vxf111]

[QUOTE=Go Fish;8232547]
If you can’t jump an oxer at 2’3" then you’re not ready to show at that level. Move down to a smaller jump class and then go practice more at home.[/QUOTE]

Look at the photos and guestimate how many people were even at this show. What kind of a victory is it for the OP to feel happy about her tough-enough courses while she sits in a chair by herself staring at en empty ring because no one comes? It doesn’t look like turnout was stellar to begin with and her decision causesd several classes to not fill. I don’t see who it’s helping to set a bunch of courses no one will ride/jump. What is the point of hosting a local/unrated schooling series that is out of whack with the demand in your area?

I also suspect that in this case it’s partially HOW she set the oxers that made people want to withdraw from the class. I don’t see anything terrifying but I do see some jumps that could have easily been done in a more inviting way while also technically being “oxers.” I know she’s somewhat limited in terms of her jumps/fill but I see a couple of jumps photographed that I wouldn’t be excited about if I had a beginner rider kid on an aged schoolie.

[Janet]

[QUOTE=Equitational;8232480]
I didn’t build that particular jump. It was from a horse trials the morning before my show.[/QUOTE] Well, I do not know about hunters and jumpers, but that fence is DEFINITELY not legal for Horse Trials Warmup.

EV108.3.d

If a horizontal pole is placed above crossed poles, it must be higher than the upper ends of the crossed poles.

It is also not legal as a competition fence becuse it has an unsecured ground line.

EV149.4.

Poles, which must be constructed of timber or have a solid wood core, and other parts of the obstacles are held up by supports (cups).

It is also not legal as a competition fence because the back rail is not in safety cups.

Whether or nor it would be legal for competition without the ilegal groundline and missing safety cups depends on the specific dimensions.

EV149.7

On obstacles with sloping rails, e.g. Swedish oxers, fans, etc. two thirds of the length of the top poles must be within the maximum height for the Division.

But obstacles with sloping elements are strongly discouraged at Novice and below.

If I were the TD I would strongly question the appropriateness of this fence at this level, even without the illegal ground line and missing safety cups.

[Janet]

[QUOTE=phoenixrises;8232548]
I am not a course designer but I believe the back rail can never be lower than the highest point on the front rail, which this jump is. I’m sure she’ll come back and say if I’m right.[/QUOTE]

If “she” means me, then no, there is no such rule for eventing. For instance, Swedish oxers are legal as long as they meet the 2/3 rule.

[Aven]

[QUOTE=vxf111;8232545]

So it’s ok to have soft courses in the crossrail divisions but then from then on out, do or die? That makes no sense to me. You’ll just end up with everyone in the crossrail division and no one will ever move up/out and your next step up class won’t fill. I mean, why not go right from crossrails to 3’6 in that case? Suck it up, buttercup.

By your logic I guess we should ban leadline. Talk about watering it down, those kids don’t jump any oxers ;)[/QUOTE]

Not really. I mean a 18 inch - 2 foot oxer is do or die?! if I had a student that felt a tiny oxer was do or die I likely wouldn’t let them out cross rails (and that never happened lol) This is what I mean about the dumbing down. Oxers are often easier for beginners as the horse often jumps them a little better. They just look a little more imposing. But who tells them they are imposing? They are beginners, they have no idea. They should be jumping them at home. What happened to being more ready than the level you are showing. So if you are competing 2’3 you should likely be confident doing a course at 2’6 or a little more.

Perhaps it is regional as none of my students could have afforded A even if our ponies had been fancey enough. Some had the funds to go trillium but the most did local series of shows. And again our regional trillium level baby horse classes have little baby horse oxers.

I would hazard its a safety issue if you have a bunch of riders who can only cope with an 18 inch rail who are trying to do a 2 foot class. Again be prepared and make sure you can do more than you will be tested on. Even in dressage I don’t go out first level if that is all my horse can do on a good day at home. I school first and show training.

Cross rails are good as they get kids out in a fairly fool proof way. That way they can get over nerves over things even the most aged of schoolies can step over safely. (and I have seen them stop and walk over them lol)

[vxf111]

Aven you’re missing the point. Do I think the difference of an inch or two is do or die? No. Neither do you. But it appears to make a difference to the OP’s clients and that’s who she is servicing-- not you or me. Her customers made it clear, if she sets oxers in those beginner classes they won’t do them. Now it’s up to her. Is standing on “principle” and looking at an empty ring more important than actually creating a show enviornment that works for her customers? Only she can answer that. She can’t make her local crowd be more prepared or more competitive or more well trained. She can service the clients she has or go looking for others or host shows no one wants to attend.

[Aven]

Not missing the point. I was responding to all the people say GAH oxers are hard. Only if you think they are or someone has convinced you or your horse they are.

One instructor at one show made a fuss. I don’t see how that everyone. I would keep them and play it by ear. Doesn’t sound like anyone had an issue at the first show.

Also it is possible that once said horse isn’t acting up everyone will be fine again. I could see offering a different division or changing something if it is more than a one time issue. But really you think a schooling show should change how they do things cause someone whines once?

[Equitational]

The insight is very interesting. Pretty much have two very different opinions from posters.

Let me make clear, the difference between the people entered and scratched was only one or two riders. I didn’t have a full class, so it wasn’t like l had 5 or 6 riders scratched because of course or oxers. I did have a low attendance. Obviously my goal was to have more, but it’s generally hard to attract competitors to the area. I wish to attract more of the bigger barns from the south who do the more competitive schooling shows. I don’t want to cater to just one particular barn or student. Alas, seems like I may loose competitors if facility doesn’t improve their footing (more of an issue and importance than anything else).

[vxf111]

I misunderstood and thought the issue caused you to lose an entire division, OP? Post #1 says “It was a small show and those riders were the only ones entered in those classes, so a lot of classes were canceled.” So I read that to mean that everyone in your 2’0 and 2’3 hunter classes complained and scratched?!

If it’s literally 2 people complaining? One trainer, two riders? How many people did the division and didn’t care about the oxers? And was there an age/skill differential between the 2 groups? Just from skimming the photos it looked to me like max 4-5 people did any hunter classes o/f at all-- but I wasn’t scrutinizing and trying to count.

I don’t think it’s ideal if you have that few people wanting to do the class, unless the turnout was unusually low for some other reason.

At the end of the day, you can hold a million classes/divisions but if they’re not what people want to do… what’s the point?!

[vxf111]

I just found your show website/prizelist etc. I think your prizelist could be a LOT more clear in terms of spelling out what each division is and what will be expected. If I was going to your show I’d honestly have no idea what to expect in some of the classes. There is no description for any of the specific hunter classes except for your 2’6 derby. The fact that the highest/biggest class of the entire day is a 2’6 class with some 2’9 options is indicative that you’re attracting mainly starter riders. More info. Lower expectations might be in line.

I’m also a little head scratchy that at every height there is one open class, one Jr/Ammy class, and then a combined under saddle. Future hunter’s hack isn’t grouped with it’s over fences classes?! Cross bar class doesn’t have a hack… The way you have this set up isn’t intiuitive and it may be making people even more confused than they’d otherwise be.

It’s nice of you to run these shows, OP. I used to run one charity pony club show and it was a lot of work. If I can dig up our prizelist I’d be happy to send it to you. We attracted a slightly higher caliber of riders (only because the kids were at least doing 2’6 in PC) but not significantly higher. We went out of our way to make the class descriptions clear and to focus on safety.

[Equitational]

I did look at the prize list for a big B show and the division specs for the regional schooling show association. Neither one specify no oxers in the 2ft, they only specify heights and cross entry restrictions. I don’t even think previous years show had any class specs either.

I did one over fence class op and one jr/am and flat classes open. Since I do have trainers showing, I set up the classes and divions this way as I don’t want to have 50 classes and a show drag out forever. I could make all classes open, but wanted jr/am classes the opportunity to show without competing against pros. For my shows, all the open Hunter courses were the same and all jr/am classes the courses were the same.