No Oxers In Short/Long Stirrup Divisions?

[QUOTE=Equitational;8235986]
Lets take a vote.

If there were classes that clearly said no oxers (or trotting allowed), would you assume that all other classes that don’t specify would include oxers or trotting wasn’t allowed?[/QUOTE]Yes. Because oxers and not trotting are normal. Trotting and no oxers is the exception.

[QUOTE=Equitational;8234639]Maybe for my next show, I should post next years class list. If anyone has anything to say (opinions or complaints) that would be the time to give me feedback. If not, forever hold your peace?

For those who don’t have oxers in their 2ft divisions (or 2’3") can you send me, or post, your associations (or show) description of the division?[/QUOTE]I looked at rules for OCHSA, LAHJA, and a local group. Though I don’t recall oxers in 2’ classes at those shows (though there may have been a discussion between a judge and a course designer at a local show, after my time of managing them, as I would have amended the rules for clarity after that), it’s not specified in the rules. Local group does specify one division in which any amount of trotting is OK and another that allows trot changes. But it seems to be one of those “understood” hunter things, like unconventional tack. I also clearly remember a friend moving up from long stirrup to a 2’3" division who was worried about the oxers.

[QUOTE=Peggy;8236246]

I looked at rules for OCHSA, LAHJA, and a local group. Though I don’t recall oxers in 2’ classes at those shows (though there may have been a discussion between a judge and a course designer at a local show, after my time of managing them, as I would have amended the rules for clarity after that), it’s not specified in the rules. [/QUOTE]

That’s the problem with a lot of the specs I saw from associations in NorCal, did not really specify (only gave maximum height and cross entry restrictions).

If I post on the show premium “no oxers, trotting allowed” for certain classes, than riders would expect the normal for the rest of the classes. As it did clearly state for some SS 11/under divisions I saw(which were even jump cross-bars).

I saw some 2’3" Long Stirrup divisions too…so it does seem to be regional thing.

fordtraktor, I did go up to one of the riders that day (right before they scratched) and said “you guys jumped the oxers last time?” rider said “pony is being bad and trainer doesn’t want us jumping oxers”.

But a month later, I guess there are still “discussions” from that barn about the oxers from last show…are they making a big deal out of it or am I? I’m loosing my mind…

[QUOTE=Equitational;8236376]
That’s the problem with a lot of the specs I saw from associations in NorCal, did not really specify (only gave maximum height and cross entry restrictions).

If I post on the show premium “no oxers, trotting allowed” for certain classes, than riders would expect the normal for the rest of the classes.

I saw some 2’3" Long Stirrup divisions too…so it does seem to be regional thing.[/QUOTE]
To add to the fun, Green Rider is higher than S/L/R Stirrup at OCHSA shows, but it’s the reverse at LAHJA. Fun times, especially if a show is sanctioned by both. Though that doesn’t happen too often.

I thought about GSDHJA while typing the above and they do specify no oxers in S/L/R Stirrup. Lots of shows are rated that plus OCHSA so that may be where I got the idea it was specified for OCHSA as well.

Thank Peggy, I haven’t looked up GSDHJA. But maybe I will build next years divisions off theirs and copy their specs.

PS. I sure didn’t think this post would warrant 7 pages of oxer debate.

Here is the GSDHJA link: http://www.gsdhja.org/files/2015pointeddivisions.pdf

[QUOTE=Equitational;8236389]
fordtraktor, I did go up to one of the riders that day (right before they scratched) and said “you guys jumped the oxers last time?” rider said “pony is being bad and trainer doesn’t want us jumping oxers”.

But a month later, I guess there are still “discussions” from that barn about the oxers from last show…are they making a big deal out of it or am I? I’m loosing my mind…[/QUOTE]

OP, what is your goal in running these shows? To make money for the facility? To raise the level of riding in your area through hosting competition? To give yourself something to do on the weekends?

I suggest you take a hard look at your goal for these horse shows and then decide if drawing a hard line on the oxer question is helping or hindering you from reaching that goal.

By the way, in my area at local shows, there are generally no oxers included in divisions 2’ or under where the division is limited by rider experience. Divisions at 2’ designed for the greenie horse often do have oxers, as these are mostly being ridden by more experienced riders or trainers.

2bayboys, my ultimate goal is to give back to the horse community (through donating my time to the non-profit equestrian park). My goal for the shows is to educate and create better horsemanship and build up the shows to possibly eventually have rated shows (or at least highly competitive schooling shows seen more in the southern region). While I have made profits from my two shows, the actual profits versus facility expenses and improvements is too minimal to even discuss.

Like I said, for someone is my position, I think it’s best for me to put a suggestion box up at my next show. People can make anonymous suggestions (or complaints or well dones). If there are none, then there are no excuses for whining next year!

If you want to build up to rated shows, I would prioritize running the divisions more LIKE at rated shows (hunter classes of 2-3 o/f followed by a hack) over oxers, IMHO. Giving someone 2-3 chances to jump is going to elevate their skills much more than one course that has an oxer or two. Next on my list would be getting some fill that is more like what they’d see at rated shows. I guess what I am saying is that there’s a lot different between your show and rated shows and I don’t see the major difference being the oxers. If you want to start building to rated shows, I would say the #1 thing to do is to reorganize your divisions. Other than “open” low-level 4H type shows I have never seen the sort of organization you have. That to me is the biggest difference between your shows and rated shows.

Food for thought… due to the mileage rule are you even going to be able to get dates for a rated show? Would your local clientel want/come to a rated show? Given the things you have to pay for at a rated show, would that turn off customers? Are your customers USEF/USHJA members?

[QUOTE=vxf111;8236549]
If you want to build up to rated shows, I would prioritize running the divisions more LIKE at rated shows (hunter classes of 2-3 o/f followed by a hack) over oxers, IMHO. Giving someone 2-3 chances to jump is going to elevate their skills much more than one course that has an oxer or two. Next on my list would be getting some fill that is more like what they’d see at rated shows. I guess what I am saying is that there’s a lot different between your show and rated shows and I don’t see the major difference being the oxers. If you want to start building to rated shows, I would say the #1 thing to do is to reorganize your division.

Food for thought… due to the mileage rule are you even going to be able to get dates for a rated show? Would your local clientel want/come to a rated show? Given the things you have to pay for at a rated show, would that turn off customers? Are your customers USEF/USHJA members?[/QUOTE]

Yes the classes and divisions are hard right now because I do have local pros who bring young/green horses and ride in the cross-bars, 2’ and 2’3" divisions. I tried to create it without having to have a bazillion classes, because I may not even have enough pros or jr/ammy to fill one division. And no one complained about the open hacks and having to compete with a trainer.

For the mileage thing, recently a new venue was adopted into the local rated association even though they were outside the milage allowance. There was definitely complaints and opinions associated with that, but at the end they brought the new venue in. I’m sure my venue could qualify for that associations mileage rule (not 100%) but getting dates is another thing, which is why it may take a decade until rated shows are a thing at this venue. And this venue is far from ready for a rated show, they just hosted their first recognized USEA event.

Building new hunter jumps and fillers is a top priority and desire of mine. They are having an “advisory meeting” in a few weeks which I will give my 2 cents for my shows. Footing and new hunter jumps/fillers. My immediate goal would be to build up the schooling shows to appeal to the greater regional competitors who compete on the (competitive) local schooling show circuit. We are just out of mileage (rule is 40 miles we are 75 miles) for that association too, but who knows, there may be a chance we could be adopted too like my scenario above.

[QUOTE=Equitational;8235986]
Lets take a vote.

If there were classes that clearly said no oxers (or trotting allowed), would you assume that all other classes that don’t specify would include oxers or trotting wasn’t allowed?[/QUOTE]

Yes. Or more accurately, that trotting would be penalized in other classes.

That actually comes off a little pretentious if you are a volunteer and not specifically hired and paid to consult on revamping this long standing local show series.

Even if you are drawing a salary to manage, you cannot install new footing, buy new jumps and safety cups or change the culture of this long established beginner level, unrated show on your own.

You may be beating your head against the wall trying to overhaul things. Why not accept it for what it is and embrace that. Be the best low cost entry level show you can be and offer what best suits that level trainer, rider, and likely older school Pony. Don’t try to make it fit your ideas of what riders and horses need to be doing, serve the riders at the levels you do have whose specific needs and limitations you really don’t know.

Have you looked into how much more it will cost you to meet the requirements and have to pay to host even the lowest level of USEF show? What you will have to charge in entries and fees plus membership requirements will price your current clientele right out of the ring. And that’s if you can even get the dates. That’s not helping them.

Theres a huge need for good, honestly operated low cost, entry level shows that are friendly to once or twice a week riders, many who do not own their horse. Aim there, be the best you can be there, post the rules, stick to them and don’t reinvent the wheel here. Serve your actual consumer, not what you want them to be.

A message to OP

:DOP, I feel your pain! I lived, and attempted to operate a training barn not far from the location of your show. Like you, I made it my mission to try to nourish the sport of showing Hunters and Jumpers in that region. For ten years or so, I put on HJ schooling shows at my farm. I had very nice show quality jumps and changed the fill between Hunter and Jumper sessions so that the jumps were legal and appropriate for both disciplines, hired USEF Judges, and organized shows that were structured exactly like USEF shows. I “fudged” a bit on a few minor details in order to make the shows comfortable for my exhibitor base, but the shows pretty much mimicked the experience of “real” HJ horse shows and I added in some extras to make the exhibitors feel welcome, such as candy at the show secretary’s desk, big water coolers with paper cups at the back gate, and a PA system that broadcasted to the warm-up ring and to the parking area. Not to mention, year end Series awards and a banquet. We kept up with the “big things” too, like regular water and drags to groom the arena footing, and hiring a EMT to be there in case of injuries. Was it a success, financial and otherwise? Not so much. The biggest show we ever did, had 35 horses, and most had around or less than 20. The residents of this region were just not very keen on the sport of showing HJs, and didn’t support the shows in great numbers. Most of my participants were either HJ Trainers from outside the area, who came with their clients, and quite a few Eventers who loved the fact that we had REAL Jumper courses. One local trainer was wonderful, and supported all of my shows, but most were not so loyal, and a few came with big attitudes. Especially for those who had never jumped over 2’6", or competed ever in a USEF horse show.

My greatest hope was that others in the area would jump in and put on similar shows, but that never happened. Although a handful of my students went on to buy nice horses, and show with pretty good success at the USEF shows that we went to, I had great difficulty in developing clients for my training barn. When the distance to ANY other horse show venue is at least a three and a half hour drive, the cost of going to one’s first horse show became very pricey. If it is a show sanctioned by the nearest local HJ associations, it’s a lot to pay for a “first” show experience, and if it is a USEF rated show… OMG! I managed to wheedle the closest local association into sanctioning my shows, but while a small number of trainers went to a few shows from the association to our South, only a couple of people from that group ventured North to ride in “our sandbox”…for after all, that circuit already offered lots of quality unrated shows, and they didn’t need to haul 175 miles to show.

So, eventually, I got the message that I was tilting at windmills, so I moved out of the area…and out of California. I invested twenty years of my life, and hundreds of thousands of dollars into this venture, but the smart thing to do, was to pack up and move to where people actually wanted what I was offering, and were willing to pay more than $2500 for horses, $600 for saddles, $35 for lessons, and $10 for entry fees. The bottom line, is that currently, and historically, the culture of this part of California is so invested in the mentality of “breed” shows, and competition on the level of 4-H and county fairs, that very few people even care that there is pipeline to excellence in HJ-land. It takes more effort and money than most are willing or able to invest, and the answer (to them) is to eliminate anything that poses a challenge to a participant…such as oxers!

I don’t know if this culture will ever change. As I mentioned before, I tried to change things for twenty years, and failed. Maybe (and I hope so) you can do better. It is difficult not to get your knickers in a knot when verbally attacked behind your back from an unknown person who rants to everyone in earshot, except you, and you hear all about it the day after the show! Or shortly after the issue in question has passed.

About four years ago, I brought clients to a show at the venue of your horse shows, and with one exception, was treated very warmly by the show management. We did well, and one kid who was 12 at the time, and who was in her very first season of showing, rode one of my horses and absolutely kicked butt, winning almost everything she entered. But, the treatment she received from several of the other kids showing, (who said really rude things to her as she accepted a trophy), and from the gate person, who near the end of the day, called her to the ring while she was jumping her last warm-up jump. We complied at once, but as we walked to the gate, the starter closed her out of the coming class for “not being timely enough”). I was furious, but chose to let it go…mostly because the footing (which had been marginal in the beginning of the day), had degraded to the point where I was worried about the danger of a soft tissue injury to the horse, who was sound, but not a colt anymore, and didn’t need to be put at risk. So we called it a day, and never returned. It was mostly about the footing, but the starter’s attitude gave me an excuse to let the horse be done for that day.

Anyway, I applaud your efforts. Maybe someday, our sport will flourish in this region. I hope it does, as it is such a beautiful part of the state, and has much to offer. I tried to change and outlast the current equestrian culture, but in the end, I couldn’t, so I moved on.

[QUOTE=findeight;8236845]
Even if you are drawing a salary to manage, you cannot install new footing, buy new jumps and safety cups or change the culture of this long established beginner level, unrated show on your own.[/QUOTE]

The facility itself is upgrading in general and I think there is some real promise for it as a nice place to ride horses with good amenities. I hear nice things from people who have gone there to event.

The problems that Saddlebag discusses of being freaking far from anywhere, however, are very real, especially for H/J schooling shows. Most people in this region are keeping horses at home or in other places that don’t themselves have much in the way of arenas and jumps for practice.

So, OP, thank you for what you are doing, and I hope it is satisfying to you and the local community. Getting people excited about going to a show and jumping at all is probably the first goal to hurdle, so more crossrail type classes may be the better path to consider. Your suggestion box is a good idea, and see what you can do to get opinions from locals who aren’t getting to your shows also. Watch date conflicts not only with holidays but also major fair and 4-H type events.

Tilting at windmills. Thank you, that is much less negative then “reinventing the wheel” which I used. Very appropriate to describe the futility of changing long ingrained culture that does not want to change much less support that change.

Perhaps there is nobility in trying but this is a hobby that’s supposed to be fun, not a quest for the good of humanity with a time limit. And you may have inherited that nasty gatekeeper along with the bad footing to boot.

Take it easy here. Do what you can for those most likely to come, not who you wish would come.

[QUOTE=Saddlebag;8236880]
:DOP, I feel your pain! I lived, and attempted to operate a training barn not far from the location of your show. Like you, I made it my mission to try to nourish the sport of showing Hunters and Jumpers in that region. For ten years or so, I put on HJ schooling shows at my farm. I had very nice show quality jumps and changed the fill between Hunter and Jumper sessions so that the jumps were legal and appropriate for both disciplines, hired USEF Judges, and organized shows that were structured exactly like USEF shows. I “fudged” a bit on a few minor details in order to make the shows comfortable for my exhibitor base, but the shows pretty much mimicked the experience of “real” HJ horse shows and I added in some extras to make the exhibitors feel welcome, such as candy at the show secretary’s desk, big water coolers with paper cups at the back gate, and a PA system that broadcasted to the warm-up ring and to the parking area. Not to mention, year end Series awards and a banquet. We kept up with the “big things” too, like regular water and drags to groom the arena footing, and hiring a EMT to be there in case of injuries. Was it a success, financial and otherwise? Not so much. The biggest show we ever did, had 35 horses, and most had around or less than 20. The residents of this region were just not very keen on the sport of showing HJs, and didn’t support the shows in great numbers. Most of my participants were either HJ Trainers from outside the area, who came with their clients, and quite a few Eventers who loved the fact that we had REAL Jumper courses. One local trainer was wonderful, and supported all of my shows, but most were not so loyal, and a few came with big attitudes. Especially for those who had never jumped over 2’6", or competed ever in a USEF horse show.

My greatest hope was that others in the area would jump in and put on similar shows, but that never happened. Although a handful of my students went on to buy nice horses, and show with pretty good success at the USEF shows that we went to, I had great difficulty in developing clients for my training barn. When the distance to ANY other horse show venue is at least a three and a half hour drive, the cost of going to one’s first horse show became very pricey. If it is a show sanctioned by the nearest local HJ associations, it’s a lot to pay for a “first” show experience, and if it is a USEF rated show… OMG! I managed to wheedle the closest local association into sanctioning my shows, but while a small number of trainers went to a few shows from the association to our South, only a couple of people from that group ventured North to ride in “our sandbox”…for after all, that circuit already offered lots of quality unrated shows, and they didn’t need to haul 175 miles to show.

So, eventually, I got the message that I was tilting at windmills, so I moved out of the area…and out of California. I invested twenty years of my life, and hundreds of thousands of dollars into this venture, but the smart thing to do, was to pack up and move to where people actually wanted what I was offering, and were willing to pay more than $2500 for horses, $600 for saddles, $35 for lessons, and $10 for entry fees. The bottom line, is that currently, and historically, the culture of this part of California is so invested in the mentality of “breed” shows, and competition on the level of 4-H and county fairs, that very few people even care that there is pipeline to excellence in HJ-land. It takes more effort and money than most are willing or able to invest, and the answer (to them) is to eliminate anything that poses a challenge to a participant…such as oxers!

I don’t know if this culture will ever change. As I mentioned before, I tried to change things for twenty years, and failed. Maybe (and I hope so) you can do better. It is difficult not to get your knickers in a knot when verbally attacked behind your back from an unknown person who rants to everyone in earshot, except you, and you hear all about it the day after the show! Or shortly after the issue in question has passed.

About four years ago, I brought clients to a show at the venue of your horse shows, and with one exception, was treated very warmly by the show management. We did well, and one kid who was 12 at the time, and who was in her very first season of showing, rode one of my horses and absolutely kicked butt, winning almost everything she entered. But, the treatment she received from several of the other kids showing, (who said really rude things to her as she accepted a trophy), and from the gate person, who near the end of the day, called her to the ring while she was jumping her last warm-up jump. We complied at once, but as we walked to the gate, the starter closed her out of the coming class for “not being timely enough”). I was furious, but chose to let it go…mostly because the footing (which had been marginal in the beginning of the day), had degraded to the point where I was worried about the danger of a soft tissue injury to the horse, who was sound, but not a colt anymore, and didn’t need to be put at risk. So we called it a day, and never returned. It was mostly about the footing, but the starter’s attitude gave me an excuse to let the horse be done for that day.

Anyway, I applaud your efforts. Maybe someday, our sport will flourish in this region. I hope it does, as it is such a beautiful part of the state, and has much to offer. I tried to change and outlast the current equestrian culture, but in the end, I couldn’t, so I moved on.[/QUOTE]

Hi Saddlebag! I think I may know who you are. I totally agree with everything you said and my trainer in the area totally has the same view point as you (with regard to the HJ community and support, or lack thereof in the region). The footing has improved, but still has a long was to go to be comparable to a large venue. Appealing to the large crowd in the south is the only way the shows will grow. I am offering $200+ in prize money at my shows, I had hoped that would spark more entries. But alas, there are a lot of people in the southern region who have never even heard of this facility.

[QUOTE=findeight;8236912]

Take it easy here. Do what you can for those most likely to come, not who you wish would come.[/QUOTE]

But what are goals, if you don’t dream? :stuck_out_tongue:

Well, there’s your goals and there are other peoples goals, often they are not the same. If you are getting money for helping others reach their goals, sometimes you have to adjust your aim.