Noblesse Oblige?

[MyGiantPony]

Just opening the concept up for conversation after reading the cost of big eq programs thread.

Do/should BNTs have any obligation to help talented riders who don’t come from mega wealthy families?

If there’s talent, desire and work ethic, should they offer the help?

I know some do so at least to some degree, but do enough?

IMO I have a hard time accepting the fact that there’s lost talent because most families simply can’t afford the literally hundreds of thousands of dollars it takes to do the big eq. The cost has become almost comically absurd.

[Happyhooves]

Over the years, I’ve seen lots of horsemen (BNTs, LNTs,MNTs and non-trainers) helping all kinds of deserving riders in one way or another, even while they themselves struggle/deal with making their own livelihood. Don’t know exactly where “should” comes in as it’s a personal choice in a volunteer activity, but have observed that most good horsemen have helped give riders a leg up along the path. Just kind of a code that lots of horse people observe. Unfortunately, sometimes the recipients feel entitled, that they are the ones doing the favor, but mostly I’ve observed the recipients appreciate it and go on to pay it forward.

[Lucassb]

[QUOTE=MyGiantPony;7717071]
Just opening the concept up for conversation after reading the cost of big eq programs thread.

Do/should BNTs have any obligation to help talented riders who don’t come from mega wealthy families?

If there’s talent, desire and work ethic, should they offer the help?

I know some do so at least to some degree, but do enough?

IMO I have a hard time accepting the fact that there’s lost talent because most families simply can’t afford the literally hundreds of thousands of dollars it takes to do the big eq. The cost has become almost comically absurd.[/QUOTE]

I think plenty of trainers do offer opportunities to riders who otherwise would not be able to train at that level. However, I don’t think they have any obligation to do so.

At the end of the day, this is what those trainers do for a living. It is a very, very difficult business and I really don’t see how anyone could suggest that they should be in any way obligated to either give their services away nor underwrite someone else’s sport. Playing in the big eq ring is a luxury pursuit.

I’d also suggest that while the big eq can be a path to a professional career, it is certainly not the only or even the best one. Someone who is really determined can learn a lot making up a nice green horse, maybe an OTTB or similar, and if they are indeed talented and hardworking, they can build their own big eq horse. I know plenty of people who did that, saved up their pennies for clinics and shows, and became very competent riders using that approach.

It is shame that we do not have a system more similar to the apprenticeship/ training model that exists in some european countries, where someone interested in doing horses for a living can get an education and professional development (not that that is free, either, but it doesn’t cost what campaigning a big eq horse would.)

[Jsalem]

Well, first of all, I think plenty of trainers do go the extra mile for talented youngsters. But here’s the rub- lots of folks think that they are that talented, deserving individual who “deserves” the catch rides and the opportunities when they, in fact, are not.
If I had a dollar for every phone call I have fielded that goes like this- “My daughter is 12 years old (or 15, or 10, or 13, or yes, 6). She’s so passionate about riding (or devoted, or serious, or committed). Her goal is to ride in the Olympics (or the big Eq, or the NCAA, or the Derbies). She currently rides in the 2’6” (or the short stirrup, or the children’s hunters, or the cross rails).

We can’t afford a horse.
She also plays volleyball.
She is also expected to get all "a"s

What can you do for her?

[Linny]

I agree that many trainers do assist riders who might not otherwise be able to afford horses or showing etc. It is a great way to contribute to the sport and in the case of a BNT who may have a substantial income it gives back to the sport that has made them well off and possibly famous. (Similarly, many mainstream sports figures run camps and programs for underprivileged children and teens for the same reason.)

That said, I don’t think that trainers are obligated to do so.

Years ago, it seemed that the “working student” concept could be molded into an apprenticeship program, and some trainers may in fact treat it as such. That a young aspiring pro might spend a period of a year or more really learning by working closely with a talented established trainer makes sense. Sadly, I don’t think that a lot of the current pro’s really want to teach the next generation how to be professional horsemen. Many trainers simply want a WS to be a “stall mucker without a W-2” because their “pay” is a stall for their own horse or lessons etc.

[Darkwave]

There was a profile in the Chronicle sometime ago of Andre Dignelli, in which he made the point that he had made it because Judy Richter had helped him out, and so it was very important to him to help kids that he saw who were really talented but didn’t have the financial backing. I believe Jacob Pope is one example.

I believe most of those top eq programs do something similar - they’re willing to give the truly talented and hard working a shot. The issue is that there’s a lot more kids who THINK that they’re truly talented and hard working then actually exist.

[Happyhooves]

Plus, it can’t be easy for trainers to do this sort of thing for juniors anymore either because there are differences of opinion that can quickly turn into big problems via social media when a grudge develops, etc., no good deed goes unpunished and all that. There have been some cautionary tales, and it seems more of a risk these days to a trainer’s livelihood than perhaps it once was to try to help out a kid. But still, most horsepeople are good and somehow in the end, that wins out and some deserving kids will still get cool opportunities.

[SnicklefritzG]

[QUOTE=Darkwave;7717378]
There was a profile in the Chronicle sometime ago of Andre Dignelli, in which he made the point that he had made it because Judy Richter had helped him out, and so it was very important to him to help kids that he saw who were really talented but didn’t have the financial backing. I believe Jacob Pope is one example.

I believe most of those top eq programs do something similar - they’re willing to give the truly talented and hard working a shot. The issue is that there’s a lot more kids who THINK that they’re truly talented and hard working then actually exist.[/QUOTE]

That was exactly the example I was thinking of when I first opened the thread. That and Missy Clark giving opportunities to Zazou Hoffman.

I don’t think the BNT’s are obligated to do pro bono work, anymore than you’d expect to get a free ride in corporate America. However, it is nice to see BNT’s trying to help a very talented and hard working junior rider who has potential, but not enough money to reach it easily.

I know one trainer who donated the use of their GP horse to their working student to help build show miles and placings they needed. It is nice to see trainers who are willing to do that.

[whbar158]

It happens quite a bit at all levels I was given opportunities (and often still do get chances) to ride and show horses/at shows that I couldn’t have done with my personal horse or on my own. Do I expect to be given a ride on a GP horse? NO! I am no where close to that, but I work hard and ride well and can often ride the harder horses that sometimes sit on the back burner so I have gotten a ton of extra saddle time that way. I do not show up to a new place and demand free rides, I have some lessons, ask around about any free rides and can usually get them. Different level than the top eq but I see trainers give chances all the time.

[lauriep]

I think the skyrocketing costs of showing have drastically limited the ability of trainers to do this as much as they might want to.

[tua37516]

[QUOTE=SnicklefritzG;7717423]

I know one trainer who donated the use of their GP horse to their working student to help build show miles and placings they needed. It is nice to see trainers who are willing to do that.[/QUOTE]

I think it’s very nice that some trainers are ABLE to do that! Let’s put it this way- I was a very hard working young rider and very GOOD but let’s face it, not one in a million. I was a much better than average rider and have made up some nice horses, but money limits you. My parents were very determined and my trainer helped me to get to some bigger rated shows than perhaps we could really ever afford. I gallopped at the track, was a working student and got some rides on some sale horses, but no one has yet to foot my bill to Florida I’m an adult now and let’s face it: there’s a line of very good riders who don’t have the money to ride at the big shows that desperately want to. And the hundreds (if not more) of dollars in shipping, training, show fees etc could be generated by someone with cash in hand is a loss if that ride is being taken up by someone riding for “free” even if they have worked off that bill. Even if you are a working student or a hard worker the horse business is not one that generates a steady paycheck for business owners and if they have a client ready to pay cash for a lesson or show paying customers are top priority. Some barns do lesson/training board with some guaranteed income but many places your clients are not contracted customers paying for a set amount of services per month. Trainers have to take the money when it is coming in.

[ideayoda]

There was a time where USET provided free education for those who were gifted riders (they also provided the horses to ride). Sadly that time has past, its about the income.

[MyGiantPony]

[QUOTE=ideayoda;7718152]
There was a time where USET provided free education for those who were gifted riders (they also provided the horses to ride). Sadly that time has past, its about the income.[/QUOTE]

The glory days of Gladstone.

[Sing_Mia_Song]

I think most trainers who are financially able are willing to essentially sponsor the very, very good rider who already has excellent ability (and a well-developed work ethic) and just needs the finishing polish. But let’s face it, they are also looking to get out of it another top flight rider who can potentially put their name on a trophy. I’m saying this as a realist, not as a cynic:as Lucassb points out, it would be a poor business model to give away services without some sort of return.

And it’s worth also echoing that free services are not always accepted graciously. In my experience (both in and out of the equestrian world), giving services away tends to cheapen them. Case in point: about 20 years ago, a friend of mine helped out a disadvantaged rider who had a lot of natural ability. She never charged for a riding lesson, and gave the kid the ride on her best horse, who competed at the national championship level. Tragically, the horse died, and there was nothing else in the barn at the same level. The kid was devastated and, understandably, decided to “take a break” from riding for a little bit.

Another barn approached the child and parent and offered to mount her if she would come and ride with them, which she did. This didn’t bother my friend as much as the fact that the child and parent never mentioned it until they showed up at the next horse show with the new barn and never thanked her for all the generosity she’d shown over the years.

[bear_necessities]

[QUOTE=Sing Mia Song;7718744]

Another barn approached the child and parent and offered to mount her if she would come and ride with them, which she did. This didn’t bother my friend as much as the fact that the child and parent never mentioned it until they showed up at the next horse show with the new barn and never thanked her for all the generosity she’d shown over the years.[/QUOTE]

Well, that’s sad! And while I know plenty of riders that have gotten great opportunities that ARE thankful, I know many riders that have gotten great opportunities that AREN’T thankful.

One young rider I know of in particular…has no money to support her horse habit and willingly rides whatever she can, which is great. What’s not great? She has an attitude the size of Texas, throws hissy fits and has left several trainers when her ride goes to a paying client. Sorry honey, this is still a business and I can’t provide you with horses for free all the time.

[midstride]

As a jr I was always willing to work, do anything, ride anything, just for an opportunity. Even as a young adult. Honestly, opportunity never came no matter how hard I worked. But somewhere along the way I realized the reason I was not receiving some opportunities from those I rode with was because they had to go where the money was. Especially in smaller local economies, there may be one to a handful of bigger clients keeping a barn or trainer afloat.

I think a true horseperson will help, support, nurture, etc. to the best of their abilities. But they also have businesses to run. Whether it is right or wrong, it is reality.

[Jsalem]

The later posters to this thread seem to understand the situation better than many. It always amazes me that some clients don’t really understand the whole “business” part of the equation. You know, folks that don’t want to pay for board, shipping and such really could get around that. It’s called buying a farm, or a truck and trailer and doing the work yourself. I’m not kidding. They would have to sacrifice by moving out farther from work and would have to get up earlier and spend weekend time to do chores. Instead, they choose to live in town and board the horse. They have to pay for that convenience. As well as pay for the convenience of having the horse body clipped, shipped to the horse show, blankets cleaned, etc. Trainers don’t run a stable “for fun”. It’s a job. They make money teaching and providing services for the convenience of the clients.

Us horse trainers don’t make a huge amount of money either. So when I see people bemoan, “It’s all about the money” - I just don’t understand it.

Smart trainers get paid or get some return for “helping” a seriously talented rider. Giving away work for free just isn’t very smart. And it’s why so many trainers don’t have health insurance or savings for retirement.

[Sing_Mia_Song]

I’m sure it also really pisses off the clients who are paying…

Didn’t Beacon Hill (back in the Cooney/Madden days) get in financial trouble for too many “free rides?” They recruited plenty of kids who had gotten to the national level with other trainers (which also didn’t sit terribly well with the trainers the kids came from) and those kids didn’t always have deep pockets. I’m talking late 80s to early 90s.

[SnicklefritzG]

[QUOTE=midstride;7718822]
As a jr I was always willing to work, do anything, ride anything, just for an opportunity. Even as a young adult. Honestly, opportunity never came no matter how hard I worked. But somewhere along the way I realized the reason I was not receiving some opportunities from those I rode with was because they had to go where the money was. Especially in smaller local economies, there may be one to a handful of bigger clients keeping a barn or trainer afloat.

I think a true horseperson will help, support, nurture, etc. to the best of their abilities. But they also have businesses to run. Whether it is right or wrong, it is reality.[/QUOTE]

This even happens to paying clients. If you’ve got a barn full of horses and one client has several horses and shows all the time, and another client is in training but shows less frequently, where are you going to put your time and energy? Some trainers can balance the needs of all their clients. Other trainers aren’t as good at that, whether they want to be or not.

[SnicklefritzG]

[QUOTE=Jsalem;7718983]

[snip]

Us horse trainers don’t make a huge amount of money either. So when I see people bemoan, “It’s all about the money” - I just don’t understand it.

Smart trainers get paid or get some return for “helping” a seriously talented rider. Giving away work for free just isn’t very smart. And it’s why so many trainers don’t have health insurance or savings for retirement.[/QUOTE]

When people say “it’s all about the money”, I don’t think they are necessarily talking about the amount of money the trainer makes, at least not in absolute terms. I think sometimes they are talking about the imbalances between how trainers treat the super wealthy owner with multiple horses, vs. the client with one horse trying to ride on a budget. While it is understandable that the trainers need to go where the money is because they have a business to run, imbalances in how they treat clients causes a lot of problems. Everyone deserves to receive what they paid for when they show up, pay their bills, and have their horse and themselves clean and presentable for a lesson or a show.