Noblesse Oblige?

[supershorty628]

[QUOTE=MyGiantPony;7717071]
Just opening the concept up for conversation after reading the cost of big eq programs thread.

Do/should BNTs have any obligation to help talented riders who don’t come from mega wealthy families?

If there’s talent, desire and work ethic, should they offer the help?

I know some do so at least to some degree, but do enough?

IMO I have a hard time accepting the fact that there’s lost talent because most families simply can’t afford the literally hundreds of thousands of dollars it takes to do the big eq. The cost has become almost comically absurd.[/QUOTE]

It’s a business, not a charity. “Lost talent” still needs to be developed. Developing talent takes a big investment, not just of money, but of time as well, on the part of the trainer and the student.

I wish we’d move away from the obsession with the equitation in this country. There are plenty of ways to move up the ranks, spending much less money than one needs to really be competitive in the eq, without doing the equitation. I never equitated seriously - I’d do it occasionally on catch rides to fill classes, but that was it. And I managed to turn out pretty okay.

I got a lot of extra rides when I was a junior, both at the barn and at shows - because I put in a lot of work to be deserving of it. My trainer created a lot of opportunities for me (that I will always be grateful for) because I worked my butt off to prove I was worth it.

Deserving riders frequently get some extra help. But IME, a lot more people think they deserve it without having to put in the hard work first.

On a similar note, I think we spend so much time telling people that “you can be whatever you want and do whatever you want” that it’s detrimental. I was VERY fortunate to be born into the situation I grew up in, but my parents made it clear to me, as soon as I was old enough to understand, that they did not have the money for me to really pursue the sport at the highest level.

I was never going to go to the eq finals and expect to be the winner - I had to have more modest goals than that. And maybe since I grew up with that mentality, it wasn’t some major heartbreak. Maybe I wanted to qualify my pony for Pony Finals and go - just to have the experience of going, not with the expectation of getting a ribbon. Maybe it was a placing in a more local medal final - whatever, you get the gist. This financial realism wasn’t a reason for bitterness about those who could afford more, it was just an acceptance of my situation.

Part of the reason I ended up with Nikki is because she was not very expensive - because no one wanted her. (Now, if anyone had known back then that she’d go on to be a GP horse…)

[findeight]

Don’t forget most BNT trainers do not own the BNHs associated with their name and it is up to the owner, partnership, syndicate or LLC that owns the horse and pays the bills to approve any and all riders. Most of us on here ask for rider approval from our trainers and there have been numerous threads about being charged for schooling rides by other then the trainer or approved person.

Its often not that the trainer does not want to help, it’s that they do not have a suitable horse and/or owner approval to put an apprentice type rider aboard their horse. The horses trainer may have control of are usually very Green or sale horses needing specific riding skills from experienced riders, they are not learner or step up mounts.

Really, would you pay 50-100+ per training ride (which trainer needs to charge to support business, facilities and eat) for a W/S to learn how to jump over 3 feet on your horse?

There is still opportunity and trainers who will help but riders need to bring more to the table so they can be an asset to trainers business. Figuring that part out is possible, not easy, but possible. Being realistic about time frame and goals and actually understanding the business itself, the time and exactly how much work is involved with starting on the bottom and working your way up goes a lot further then wanting to be a star and moaning nobody will give them a free horse to learn to jump 5’ and open water on.

In my barn over almost 20 years watched probably 50+ kids with big dreams get that door open a crack but not push it open mostly because they wanted too much too soon and were not willing to take the baby steps, ride the stinkers, miss other activities to unpack and clean the trailer or sit with a sickie to earn more chances. The few that stuck with it did move up to far better horses then they could afford, one W/S is now a trainer. Couple of the very young assistant trainers getting their first big break are on the pages of COTH frequently- both from middle class families that could barely afford a single horse for them so they always had to scramble and make it work.

Riders who want more opportunity need to create it and pick attainable goals to work for. Long term those will open realistic doors.

[hntrjmprpro45]

Meh, I stopped feeling bad for all of the “underprivileged talented kids” when I saw what little work ethic most have. I have had some that turn their nose up at having to ride something a little green or difficult, or having to clean stalls, or heaven forbid, having to do flatwork. I’ve had some that solely want to ride my warmbloods and don’t really want to ride a Tb.

The funny thing is, most of these kids say they want to be a pro someday. Well guess what? As a pro, you ride green horses, do barn chores and end up riding whatever breed of horse your client has.

[findeight]

Well, look at some of the threads we get on here looking for how to get to 3’6" Medal Finals before aging out or how to become a trainer. Most suggestions-more barn time, go to all the shows the barn does even when you don’t show and watch everything, shadow trainer etc- get met with excuses. Some legit like no car or license. But even that can be worked with IF the kid really wants to learn everything about horses and has that passion. But I guess it’s easier for most to blame circumstances and consider themselves “lost talent” then do barn chores ride anything or save money towards getting drivers license or paying a Mom back for gas if things are tight so they can get the barn time.

Unfortunately, in most, it seems that being a riding star at the uppermost levels is the passion. Not living and breathing horses, enjoying every minute with them but adulation and fame. Sooner, not later. Kind of the downside of Road to the Maclay show that didn’t really deal with actual barn time and thousands of hours if saddle time, just the glitzy result for the small percentage that got that far with the very top, most expensive barns and horses.

Not many kids are allowed to be barn rats any more. Either the parent has them fully booked with other activities or the barn does not want them hanging around. But, again, as the kids get a little older that’s not as big an issue…and there are other barns that encourage it. Course they may not be the big fancy ones or may even be in another discipline but if the kid has the passion, it’ll work.

Anyway, if they have the true passion there are ways to be in horses. If they want to be a big star? Not so much. Maybe ask themselves if it is about true passion for horses or about them being a star.

[Jsalem]

I completely agree with supershorty and findeight. We are obsessed with Equitation in this country because kids want to be a star. There was a study that I recently read about which said children, when asked “what they wanted to be when they grew up” were no longer answering, “Doctor, ball player, teacher” but were answering, “I want to be famous”. I personally think that the Equitation division is too expensive and too elitist. You can qualify for the finals but you really cannot win these days without access to multiple horses and tons of showing experience- you need hunters, jumpers and equitation horses. And you know what- as a trainer, it’s not my job to beg, borrow or steal them for you.

[Sing_Mia_Song]

[QUOTE=supershorty628;7719926]

I wish we’d move away from the obsession with the equitation in this country. There are plenty of ways to move up the ranks, spending much less money than one needs to really be competitive in the eq, without doing the equitation. [/QUOTE]

Irony alert: Back in the day, you did the equitation if you did not have the money to compete in the hunters. Leg hangers, bad movers, serviceably sound horses–that’s what became equitation horses, and they were significantly cheaper. You could win by being precise and correct. The practice of having several big name eq horses is relatively recent. There were also just three finals, with the USET being a very new and relatively sparsely-attended one, so horses were drilled a lot less than they are now.

But they still took your stirrups away and only gave them back at shows!

[Jsalem]

Yes, Mia, I remember when the Hunters were considered a “rich man’s game” and the Equitation was the “poor man’s game”. I don’t think that’s the case anymore. In my barn, we’ve done really well buying young, quality hunters and bringing them up through the ranks for a reasonable price (not cheap, but nothing like what it costs to buy a made Hunter). We’ve done well at Devon, Harrisburg, Pony Finals, etc with these horses that we produced ourselves.

My clients simply cannot afford to pursue the Equitation- financially or the in terms of school missed. It’s a whole different world- one that I’m not really interested in.

[Darkwave]

As a semi aside, I’ve always loved Find Eight’s first sig line (the overalls one), and I find it especially appropriate for this thread.

[miguelwilson2]

Noblesse Oblige?

I feel like there’s a slight taste of resentment towards less fortunate riders in this thread. Let me begin by saying that I am 15 years old, I have never owned a horse, and my financial situation is less than ideal. I know I might be the exception but: I will ride anything, I’m not afraid to get dirty, and I want to learn anything and everything about this business.

     I missed my 8th grade graduation to go to Devon to groom. My school had an 'Awards Night', and I wasn't there to accept my honor of being one of the few to get all A's because I was at the barn. I'm thankful to anyone that's helped me in my riding because I know they didn't have to help me. No one has to tell me to take the stirrups off of my saddle. In fact, somedays I'll take my stirrups off, and ride up to six horses without them. I took the initiative and told my parents I wanted to start online school because I knew I needed to ride as much as I could. 

    I've moved away from my family, and found sponsors (thanks to the help of my dad) to pay my show entries. I was the one typing those emails to trainers looking for working students. I was on the phone calling people asking for money. I've even started a foundation to help under-privileged children get introduced to horses. I am the most dedicated person you'll ever meet. It's hard watching kids younger than you reach your goals. It's hard waking up at 4 AM to help lunge ponies, and not even getting to ride that day. It's hard getting rejected over and over again. You're horse could be a leopard-spotted mutt, and I'd still give it the best ride I can. 

     All I ask from you all (the pros and owners of this sport) is a little help. It can be a chance to hack your ponies, an opportunity to jog a junior hunter, or even a chance to show something on my own bill. This is not me being entitled, this is me saying I could be really amazing someday, but all I need is a little help TODAY.

[BK6756]

Interesting… as someone who has very little knowledge about the upper levels of this sport I would have assumed that hunters would cost more than eq horses. In equitation it would seem that the horse doesn’t need to have any special way of moving, just needs to be obedient and would therefore be easier to come by… (I realize that’s an oversimplification to some degree)
So, why are eq horses harder to come by??

[Jsalem]

Miguel,

1. You’re not the norm.
2. You’re gonna do fine.
3. Best of luck to you, my young friend.

[findeight]

That reminds me of one kid who wanted it all. Made 2 Medal Finals, had a really nice Eq horse that could also do High Ch/Ad or a “soft” Low Jr/AO. Horse was to be sold and several other trainers on the National level had clients lined up to try him at Indoors. Kid had an offer to travel with another A barn for the next summer after graduating High School.

A dream realized, great way to move up in riding, right? Bzzzzt. Nope. Turns out Indoor trips conflicted with Homecoming and Prom. Kid stayed home, went to dances, horse stayed in flyover country and didn’t sell for six months. Boyfriend dumped her before Christmas. Summer job offer dissolved when she missed Indoors and did not want to go to WEF to work on spring break unless a girlfriend could come too. She wanted it until she had to make more difficult choices that required giving something else up in favor of horses.

So, for all those who say they really want it? I say no you don’t. But I think Miguel might.

Oh, my sig line with the overalls? Read it credited to Teddy Roosevelt, probably he read it credited to somebody else.

[JenEM]

[QUOTE=supershorty628;7719926]

I wish we’d move away from the obsession with the equitation in this country. There are plenty of ways to move up the ranks, spending much less money than one needs to really be competitive in the eq, without doing the equitation. [/QUOTE]

I wonder how much of this is to do with learning to to make and achieve reasonable goals. There are a LOT of things out there that aren’t Qualifying For Indoors that riders can aim towards more affordably. Most state horse show organizations have their own Medal finals, and there are a lot of programs offered through things like local organizations and even the USHJA that don’t get a lot of attention and publicity, but can make for really achievable, solid goals.

For example, I’ve been doing a lot of dressage and eventing over the last few years, and so I made it one of my goals this year to get out to more hunter shows, and to move up to 3’. In so doing, I found out about the USHJA’s Outreach program, which doesn’t get much publicity, but offers year end awards and medals and differing height levels. More shows, not even recognized ones, could offer this to give riders something to qualify for. They also offer Stirrup Cup awards for B level showing; I’d like to make the move up to some rated stuff and try for one of those next year. Again, you don’t hear much about them, but it’s a goal more people could set and work towards, much more affordably than big AA shows every week. These programs are out there to be taken advantage of, but I don’t feel like there’s a lot of publicity about them, which is a shame, because I think they’d make really good stepping stones for riders to accomplish something on a budget, and get some recognition for it. Certainly they’re things I know I can achieve, with the budget and resources available to me; I try to be realistic in goal-setting, because I know something like Qualifying For Indoors is out of my milieu both talent-wise and budgetarily.

I don’t wonder if more exposure to other disciplines, and things like Pony Club, might not help as well. They’re expected to be much more independent and learn to do things for themselves; they build the skills you need to learn to braid and wrap and participate in horse and stable management. Those are things that should make you much more marketable as working student or groom or aspiring professional.

[Soaponarope]

I think people have no idea how hard it is to be self employed. There is no steady paycheck and when the economy tanks, a luxury like riding is the first expense to go. You have to pay your health insurance, mortgage on the farm, and then pay yourself. A client sees big beautiful shiny horses and clean stalls, but they should know the trainer is dependent on those clients to pay each month. They may hear of a fantastic sale price but they don’t understand what it cost to get the horse there and how few deals the average trainer makes per year. It is not a regular paycheck. I don’t expect to get anything for free. My DD has had some opportunities to work and catch ride which have been great. But I’ve always stressed the importance of her having a job outside the barn and seeking a career in the future that will let her afford her passion. It always made more sense to me to encourage her to work at a job outside the barn. There was always a long line of kids (who usually fall in and out of favor and are subject to all sorts of barn drama) wanting to work to ride. Working to ride doesn’t necessarily mean working at the barn. But as far as noblesse oblige at the Big Eq or Junior Hunter level, that is pretty hard to come by and reserved for those like at the very top - Tori Colvin - who are basically mini pros. They make the horses look good and increase their value. So I suppose it isn’t noblesse oblige in the end.

[doublesstable]

[QUOTE=supershorty628;7719926]

I wish we’d move away from the obsession with the equitation in this country. [/QUOTE]

And the rest of your post was spot on!!!

[Trixie]

I wish we’d move away from the obsession with the equitation in this country. There are plenty of ways to move up the ranks, spending much less money than one needs to really be competitive in the eq, without doing the equitation. I never equitated seriously - I’d do it occasionally on catch rides to fill classes, but that was it. And I managed to turn out pretty okay.

I agree completely. This is a sport you can do for a large portion of your life - why do we so glorify a twee part of it that happens during a time in most people’s lives when frankly, they’re not their best selves (i.e., teens). I’d rather see us celebrating upper level riding more than eq. But eq sells, at this point.

I don’t think anyone is obligated to do anything except make sure the horses that they’re responsible for are cared for. I’m just grateful when they do.

[Peggy]

[QUOTE=Sing Mia Song;7720117]
Irony alert: Back in the day, you did the equitation if you did not have the money to compete in the hunters. Leg hangers, bad movers, serviceably sound horses–that’s what became equitation horses, and they were significantly cheaper. You could win by being precise and correct. The practice of having several big name eq horses is relatively recent. There were also just three finals, with the USET being a very new and relatively sparsely-attended one, so horses were drilled a lot less than they are now.

But they still took your stirrups away and only gave them back at shows![/QUOTE]

I also remember those days. Also, it was possible and relatively normal to qualify for regional or even national medal finals by going to one-day shows as opposed to serial USEF A shows. That, too, helped to keep the cost down. Some of my friends who went that route even got nice top-ten finishes in medal finals.

[PonyPenny]

[QUOTE=miguelwilson2;7720719]
I feel like there’s a slight taste of resentment towards less fortunate riders in this thread. Let me begin by saying that I am 15 years old, I have never owned a horse, and my financial situation is less than ideal. I know I might be the exception but: I will ride anything, I’m not afraid to get dirty, and I want to learn anything and everything about this business.

     I missed my 8th grade graduation to go to Devon to groom. My school had an 'Awards Night', and I wasn't there to accept my honor of being one of the few to get all A's because I was at the barn. I'm thankful to anyone that's helped me in my riding because I know they didn't have to help me. No one has to tell me to take the stirrups off of my saddle. In fact, somedays I'll take my stirrups off, and ride up to six horses without them. I took the initiative and told my parents I wanted to start online school because I knew I needed to ride as much as I could. 

    I've moved away from my family, and found sponsors (thanks to the help of my dad) to pay my show entries. I was the one typing those emails to trainers looking for working students. I was on the phone calling people asking for money. I've even started a foundation to help under-privileged children get introduced to horses. I am the most dedicated person you'll ever meet. It's hard watching kids younger than you reach your goals. It's hard waking up at 4 AM to help lunge ponies, and not even getting to ride that day. It's hard getting rejected over and over again. You're horse could be a leopard-spotted mutt, and I'd still give it the best ride I can. 

     All I ask from you all (the pros and owners of this sport) is a little help. It can be a chance to hack your ponies, an opportunity to jog a junior hunter, or even a chance to show something on my own bill. This is not me being entitled, this is me saying I could be really amazing someday, but all I need is a little help TODAY.[/QUOTE]

That is all fine and dandy, but are you good enough that an owner would want you on their horse? Hard work and desire are great, but if you don’t have the talent, you are not going to get the opportunities you so desire.

[justathought]

[QUOTE=Jsalem;7720808]
Miguel,

1. You’re not the norm.
2. You’re gonna do fine.
3. Best of luck to you, my young friend.[/QUOTE]

IME there are quite a few like Miquel out there. They may not be the norm - if that means the majority - but they are out there in significant numbers. Kids that take working student positions and work their butts off, even when they get few rides and little recognition. Kids that learn everything they possibly can about managing horses and running a barn. Kids that cross disciplines to work with top professionals in dressage and eventing as well as hunter/jumpers because they are developing as big a bag of tools and as broad a set of skills as possible.

And… Unfortunately they do not all do fine… Because sometimes even the hardest work ethic, the best of ability, and all the right intentions do not get recognized or rewarded,

I

[justathought]

[QUOTE=PonyPenny;7721368]
That is all fine and dandy, but are you good enough that an owner would want you on their horse? Hard work and desire are great, but if you don’t have the talent, you are not going to get the opportunities you so desire.[/QUOTE]

There are plenty of riders with sufficient talent but insufficient opportunity to develop it.