North Forks Brenin Cardi

[adelmo95]

First off let me say that I love this stallion and think it is amazing what he has done in terms of getting people to recognize the potential dressage talent that the breed can have.

I am curious about a couple of things with respect to this stallion:

• Is he bred to many cob mares, the reason I ask is that I have seen a lot of his offspring advertised on warmbloods-for-sale.com and most seem to be out of warmblood mares. He seems to be producing lovely crosses but some of their price tags surprised me ($35,000 for a two year old).

• What are the age of his oldest offspring and are they proving themselves in the ring as well? All of the youngsters I have seen video of can MOVE so I would think they should be successful but curious about trainability etc.

Do you think if his offspring start proving themselves more people will be open to this type of cross even if it is not sired by Cardi but is by another well bred cob stallion that throws that type of movement? I am sure some of the breeders in the welsh world would be able to point towards the bloodlines that could consistently throw big movement when put to the right mare, and the stallion might have been campaigned in something else (driving etc.).

[exvet]

Cardi seems to have had quite a few offspring on the ground both purebred and half-bred. Some are in other countries. From what I know they are competing in dressage, eventing and driving. He has I believe two sons that are breeding. The one stallion (son) is at least six or seven. He is currently competing at second level.

I am not very popular with those associated with this stallion because I am one who hates to see the prices so high. While I see the value in the Welsh Cob as a breed I fear it puts this wonderful breed out of reach of those who would otherwise benefit greatly from what they have to offer.

As to your last question, I can only respond by saying that I get more inquiries and interest in the half-breds either TB or warmblood than I do the purebred. As a Welsh Cob breeder though the downside to that is that it takes a damn good purebred to make those fantastic crosses.

[Blume_Farm]

I just sold my Welsh-Hanoverian cross (by a different sire than Cardi). He will be showing Third Level this year and everything has come so easy to him other than medium/ extended trot. He routinely places in Region 1 Championships against some really nice WBs. The GRP was developed by crossing imported Welsh ponies to their WB horse base. The GRP is extremely popular in Europe as that is what all children start their riding careers on. The trend is developing here and I think in 10 years or so will hopefully become as popular.

[Calvincrowe]

There aren’t that many cob mares locally available to him, and he crosses beautifully with non-cob mares. I think that folks have nice mares, he’s proven himself to be amateur friendly and reproduces that in his get. His co-owner http://www.winterlakewelsh.com/ might provide a better perspective on his breeding history to cobs.

I have to say, he is a delightful stallion. Serious about his work, kind, super attitude, easy to be around. And cute as a bug’s ear! Not bringing much to answer your questions, but maybe someone else can?

[exvet]

To be fair, Blume’s welsh cross was a section A not a cob (section C or D). There is a definite difference. It also must be said that you need to be very careful, as with all breedings, to pair the right mare type with a welsh cob and that doesn’t always mean that the same mare would suit/nick well with every welsh cob stallion. I’ve seen some not so nice results from welsh cob x wb and welsh cob x arab crosses. I’ve also seen some pretty mediocre tb x welsh cob crosses but this cross seems to be the more consistent for at least usually a decent ammy all-rounder as well as the welsh cob x morgan cross in my experience just in terms of conformation, gaits and temperament but as always there are exception there too.

I don’t think that the cross or the purebred will ever gain a huge following. There are limits to size and price. The ones who bring more cash usually have a decent amount of training. Still if you look at the odds the welsh cobs who compete just in dressage and in CDEs tend to have a better percentage out of the total for making it higher in the levels/ranks and doing okay (ie, 60% or above for dressage and 1st/2nd placings for driving).

[cnm161]

I keep hoping that people will post pictures of little welsh/warmblood babies. Or adults. I’ll take either.

In short, I’ve got nothing to add to this thread but I want to see pony cuteness.

[adelmo95]

Wouldn’t most of the GRP’s have welsh section B’s in their history not the cob as you would need something to decrease the height more significantly when crossed with a warmblood?

It is interesting to see the responses. I am on the same side as exvet in that I was sad to see the prices so high especially for unstarted youngsters as it is going to make them unattainable for many people. I love cobs and crosses and have drooled over them for many years (my goal is to eventually own one to develop as a dressage horse/pony) but was truly shocked at the price tags for a lot of these guys. Especially knowing the quality I could purchase close to home at a different price point just because they are not by a stallion known to the dressage world (stallion has top cob bloodlines so no I am not comparing a “backyard breeder” to the ones I have seen listed…)

[exvet]

Wouldn’t most of the GRP’s have welsh section B’s in their history not the cob as you would need something to decrease the height more significantly when crossed with a warmblood?

In general yes, the Downland lines (section B) and a couple of the Cusop lines were more popular for the breeding of GRPs; however, there are at least 3 welsh cobs (section D) that I personally know of that were approved, registered and branded GRPs that were imported to this country. My mare, Cosmo, is by one of them.

Especially knowing the quality I could purchase close to home at a different price point just because they are not by a stallion known to the dressage world (stallion has top cob bloodlines so no I am not comparing a “backyard breeder” to the ones I have seen listed…)

OK I"m going to be blunt here. Quality depends on multiple factors when we’re talking about a Welsh Cob. Bloodlines do matter imo but there isn’t just one quality Welsh Cob stallion out there producing dressage talented get. Last year for All-Breed Awards Susan Stepney, Gallod Stud, was the most/best represented breeder in the ranks. She has stood three stallions over the years and all three have had get make it into the All-Breed Awards. I’ve owned a few of hers and I’m well known for not having to second mortgage my home to attain my stock. There are at least 4 other Welsh Cob stallions who come to mind who have produced stock in recent years (decade) that have done well in dressage circles and in the not too distant past Madoc Farms (TX) was putting a lot of cobs out there that were holding their own in dressage and eventing. Many of these animals could be had for $5000 or less when they were young prospects. Some of the prices you’re seeing do reflect training; but it’s obvious that some are spinning what they can. I say this because I’ve had a few personal contacts from the owner of one top stallion who has tried to dictate what pricing I should be listing mine at.

In addition to bloodlines there is type, conformation and disposition to be considered too that all make up quality. I’ve been at this a couple of decades (or more) and I know what recipe works for me. I’m willing to bet that some of ‘that which could be had’ near you for lesser prices have quality…they just need some polish so they can shine; but, it’s hard to say for sure without knowing whose breeding program you are referring to. All I know is that I have found talent in many a Welsh Cob. Whether or not that could easily be seen by others really depended on how hard my arse worked at not limiting it.

[alto]

[QUOTE=adelmo95;7493360]

I love cobs and crosses and have drooled over them for many years (my goal is to eventually own one to develop as a dressage horse/pony) but was truly shocked at the price tags for a lot of these guys. Especially knowing the quality I could purchase close to home at a different price point just because they are not by a stallion known to the dressage world (stallion has top cob bloodlines so no I am not comparing a “backyard breeder” to the ones I have seen listed…)[/QUOTE]

Find a local Welsh that has the conformation & movement & give it a go … we have a Welsh Cob out of breeder of no repute (did I say that politely enough ) & he has gotten plenty of raves from the jump & dressage crowd.

While I respect exvet’s views, I don’t expect this stallion’s owners to be any different than anyone else that has developed & campaigned a nice stallion.

[exvet]

While I respect exvet’s views, I don’t expect this stallion’s owners to be any different than anyone else that has developed & campaigned a nice stallion.

I have agreed in the past and continue to believe that “This” stallion’s owners’ have done a magnificent job marketing and campaigning a stallion of merit. I am also saying that there are very nice welsh to be had for a reasonable price and that there isn’t only one Welsh Cob stallion in North America nor just one breeding program to be producing capable stock. There is an under current among some of the Welsh breeders to try to dictate to each other what price points they should be setting for their stock. Whether or not that’s common to what others who have developed & campaigned a nice stallion is, well, up to interpretation.

[Daventry]

[QUOTE=exvet;7495094]
I am also saying that there are very nice welsh to be had for a reasonable price and that there isn’t only one Welsh Cob stallion in North America nor just one breeding program to be producing capable stock. [/QUOTE]

Yes, there are a few up and coming stallions doing well in the open show circuits. This up and coming Welsh Cob stallion is definitely on my radar! His name is Camina’s MacCoy and was imported from Denmark. He is only available by frozen semen while he is being campaigned. He showed Prix St. George last year and has a fantastic jump on him too! From what I have heard, they are still working on a website for him.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=555925194505487&set=pcb.555925694505437&type=1&theater

Amy Riley is also doing a lovely job with her three Welsh Cob boys. This video shows her stallion Quillane Apollo schooling dressage. If memory serves me right, they will be competing in Combined Driving this year. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TeY9czo9n0

@exvet;7495094

I say this because I’ve had a few personal contacts from the owner of one top stallion who has tried to dictate what pricing I should be listing mine at.

I’m guessing you and I were contacted by the same Stallion Owner. I was also raked through the coals for having a resale Cob filly priced too low, their opinion mind you.

[MysticOakRanch]

[QUOTE=exvet;7495094]
[I]“This” stallion’s owners’ have done a magnificent job marketing and campaigning a stallion of merit. I am also saying that there are very nice welsh to be had for a reasonable price and that there isn’t only one Welsh Cob stallion in North America nor just one breeding program to be producing capable stock. .[/QUOTE]

While I don’t disagree with your post at all - I have to point out this is ALL types of horses. The same can be said of Warmbloods (or almost any other breed). Good marketing (which takes money) develops a “name brand” which develops value in most people’s eyes. Prices are all over the place - and it isn’t all based on actual ability and quality of the horse!

Those who can afford to promote their horses develop a higher value in the eyes of the consumer.

BTW - I’ve noticed MacCoy’s owners starting to advertise - so soon there will be two Welsh Cob Stallions in the US (tongue in cheek)

[exvet]

MysticOakRanch I do understand and know that what I said applies to all stallions/breeds. It goes with reason. The ‘unique’ aspect is only that of a breed with few in this country which means there are also fewer breeders in comparison to say warmbloods. We all know each other at least by name and it at times makes the ‘dictation’ of how things shall be done not only a bit more personal but gives the appearance that it’s the ONLY way things are to be done. I do not dictate to them what value they should put on their stock. Why because they garner a higher price through their efforts do they feel the right to dictate to me what price I should put on mine?

Daventry, I have had my eye on the same stallions and programs you highlight um and that includes yours <wink>.

[Daventry]

[QUOTE=exvet;7495932]
Why because they garner a higher price through their efforts do they feel the right to dictate to me what price I should put on mine?

Daventry, I have had my eye on the same stallions and programs you highlight um and that includes yours <wink>.[/QUOTE]

Agreed. No breeder or Stallion Owner has the right to tell another breeder how they should be pricing their stock. I will leave it at that!

Thanks for the comments regarding Goldhills Brandysnap. We are super busy this year showing Daventry’s Power Play under saddle and getting his final approvals done with the various warmblood registries…but our plans are to produce a new dressage video for Brandysnap this summer.

[alto]

[QUOTE=Daventry;7495994]
but our plans are to produce a new dressage video for Brandysnap this summer. ;)[/QUOTE]
Very excited about that :yes:

[rideagoldenpony]

As far as a lack of purebred Cob mares to Cardi, there are very, very few people breeding Cobs currently, and a lot of times they have their own stallion, or one nearby. I don’t think it is any reflection on him that more are not being bred. In fact in 2012, there were only 24 purebred Section D Welsh Cobs registered with the WPCSA, which is a very low number.

[adelmo95]

I was never questioning his quality - I think he is a lovely stallion, and I think the fact that he is attracting breeders who have premium warmblood mares is supportive of him being quality. I was just curious to know whether he was also being crossed to Cob mares to continue on those bloodlines as well.

MysticOakRanch may have captured the idea with saying that marketing will impact the resulting prices of foals. I guess it is a good thing that people will be able to gain value out of marketing otherwise it would be very hard to justify.

I should also clarify when I made reference to bloodlines I am talking about ones from proven performance lines that have proven themselves in the dressage, hunter/jumper, and combined driving world. I am not just factoring in ones that are successful in hand as I have learned through competing on the welsh circuit in the past that some of the halter winners will not make the best performance ponies (My experience was all with section B’s though).

[rideagoldenpony]

[QUOTE=adelmo95;7499092]
I am not just factoring in ones that are successful in hand as I have learned through competing on the welsh circuit in the past that some of the halter winners will not make the best performance ponies (My experience was all with section B’s though).[/QUOTE]

What part of the country are you in? On the west coast it’s pretty expected that the top halter ponies also go out and win in performance.

[Daventry]

[QUOTE=rideagoldenpony;7499294]
What part of the country are you in? On the west coast it’s pretty expected that the top halter ponies also go out and win in performance.[/QUOTE]

I think adelmo95’s experience has been strictly with a certain bloodline of ponies in Alberta. adelmo95, you might have to visit a Welsh show down in the U.S. one day…or come out to one of the ones we compete at! The top halter ponies “should” and do also win under saddle as well. Unfortunately, not very many Canadian breeders do performance with their ponies.

[adelmo95]

Daventry is correct that I have a lot of experience with one bloodline, but I know more than that one. I rode ponies for a certain breeder who’s ponies were extremely successful on the line for many years but many also went on to be top show ponies. I ended up showing two full siblings who were very different types in the hunter/jumper ring. The one sibling was supreme champion on the line, the other the breeder never would have bothered to show on the line. The one that was supreme champion made a cute hunter, cute jump, stride to make the lines, and flashy colour to get noticed, but she lacked the scope for the jumper ring, and changes didn’t come easy to her. Her full sibling would not have been competitive in hand (still pretty just not what the judges look for) but was unbelievably athletic: tons of scope, big stride, great form, easy changes, extremely brave and had a child friendly temperament to boot. They are just one example and there would be many exceptions to the rule but the catch when talking about showing in hand vs. performing under saddle is that in hand the Trot will be more important than the canter whereas the opposite is true under saddle. Also there are some ponies that have won in hand that I would love to turn into performance ponies so I am not saying that is always the case. Also the last time I was seen at a dressage show I will say that Daventry’s pony should have won against the stallion I was showing in hand, and I am sure she will also make sure that he goes on to do something under saddle, if that is the pony she thinks I am referring to it is NOT.

Anyway maybe things have changed because it has been over 15 years since I have been heavily involved in the welsh world. I hope things have changed and evolved to reward a pony that will do well in sport.