Noticed a bit of level creep at an event this past weekend

[CindyCRNA]

While I did not event my horse at an event this past weekend, I went to support 3 friends who did. Let me preface this by saying I am a weeny eventer and certainly speak from very limited experience but i have jumped this particular course many times. For their HT, they included a jump that was on the Novice course last year. It was in a tree line draped in shadows. It looked like this: https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=types+of+cross+country+jumps+eventing&view=detailv2&&id=0A7AE6494314D9B987912CD879481E91675170CE&selectedIndex=51&ccid=QgVSLvTs&simid=608036644203597520&thid=OIP.M4205522ef4ec4bac946a3e8e0caec29eo0&ajaxhist=0. I did not measure the height at the top of the log but they had attached thin brush to the top vertically, most of which was a foot in height. While it was thin and wispy, it was sticking straight up in the shadows. There also was a drop on the landing side meaning the ground on the landing side was about 10" roughly lower than the take off side. I saw many refusals but the worst was a dislodged rider when she was not prepared for the jolt on the landing side. Her head hitting was heard by everyone. She was dazed and repeating statements as I stayed with her on the ground. (I was close, I’m a nurse, it seemed the thing to do). She was transported to the hospital with a concussion.

My point is as a low level weeny, we have not jumped brush. My friends had never either. It was thin and easily seen thru but it was in the shade, it was a higher jump and the landing presented problems for some. The jump without the brush is daunting enough. I did not see the point of this on a BN course. I now will be adding brush to my cc jumps.

[Hilary]

Was it on Novice or BN? Your post is unclear. How far along into the course was it?

Drops on landing should not be a big problem if the riders are secure. Stick your feet out and stay back and they are very fun to jump, but you do need to have a good lower leg and be OK riding up and down hills.

I’d be more concerned about the brush/visibility part, but on cross country you should be able, even at BN, to jump up and down hills.

[Saskatoonian]

What you describe sounds like very nice intro brush (thin; you can see through it), and it wouldn’t surprise me if that were the point. I bet your horse will figure it out in no time. To make it more difficult, you can make the brush more solid and stiffer. Most horses will learn to brush through but some always jump the whole thing.

Shadows are always tricky and change throughout the day, especially when jumps are in a tree line (which is often nice because it gives natural wings to the jumps), so you have to ride them a little carefully. As for the drop on landing, 10" shouldn’t be a big deal at all - you’ve probably done it without noticing! - but it’s definitely something to notice when you walk the course, and you don’t want to jump ahead.

[NCRider]

[QUOTE=Saskatoonian;8668381]
What you describe sounds like very nice intro brush (thin; you can see through it), and it wouldn’t surprise me if that were the point. I bet your horse will figure it out in no time. To make it more difficult, you can make the brush more solid and stiffer. Most horses will learn to brush through but some always jump the whole thing.

Shadows are always tricky and change throughout the day, especially when jumps are in a tree line (which is often nice because it gives natural wings to the jumps), so you have to ride them a little carefully. As for the drop on landing, 10" shouldn’t be a big deal at all - you’ve probably done it without noticing! - but it’s definitely something to notice when you walk the course, and you don’t want to jump ahead.[/QUOTE]

Maybe I’m reading the OP wrong, but I don’t think you should have a brush fence with a drop landing into shadows at BN. BN should be straight forward and not ask more than 1 question.

[beowulf]

Interesting. It may just be me, but in my area a few years ago I would not have expected a brush/hedge fence until Training. My first brush on course was Appleknoll’s hedge fence, at Training and the fourth fence on course. However, I have not competed recognized in the last year due to the newest greenbean, so I can’t say for certain if it has changed in my area. Granted, brush is included in the rulebook but I never saw it implemented in my area below Training.

I agree, at BN if we are to believe what OP is saying, that may have been too much. One question is usually all you need to ask at that level. Novice, maybe, though a brush on top of a tiger-trap fence is a little excessive IMO.

The uphill/drop thing… if you’re competing at any recognized event you should be able to navigate up/down terrain.

[kcmel]

I agree 10" isn’t much of a drop. There was a sunken road on the BN course at Plantation this weekend. At BN the two elements had separate numbers.

The brush though, especially 1’ high on an almost max jump, I would not expect to see at BN.

[Saskatoonian]

I don’t really see this as an inappropriate question. Brush isn’t only allowed, but is encouraged under the specs in Appendix 2 of the Rules. A 10" drop is a drop in the bucket compared with the permissible drop: 3’3" according to Appendix 2 (!!). I don’t think it’s really a drop - I think it’s terrain, and the rules assume you’re capable of riding on terrain. A jump with brush can be 3’ (counting the brush) so it doesn’t surprise me that the OP would have seen this one on the N course another time (and it might have been a soft jump on the N course).

The rules limit the combinations that can be on BN, but that’s not what’s going on here, because there’s only one element, even though we can look at it as posing a variety of potential questions.

OP, sorry you saw some rotten trips at this jump - it’s much more inspiring to watch a ton of successful ones! - but I think you’ve got the right attitude and recognize the questions and are going home to school them, and you’re going to be just fine. (For perspective, I’ll never forget walking my first P course and discovering that the Weldon’s wall that had been on the I course the previous season was on MY course! It rode just fine. )

[CindyCRNA]

I’m sorry, Hilary. It was a Novice jump last year that met the new guidelines as a BN jump this year.

[ndirish07]

From the sounds of it, I’d expect to see that on a BN course, including the slight drop. For reference, I was walking one of my BN courses that had a shared brush fence with Novice then three strides to a bank— the brush seemed massive. I thought it wasn’t a problem because Novice ran first and they’d surely trim it back for BN. Nope. BN went first-- that thing was all mine. Rode great though even though my former fox hunter forgot about that whole “brushing” through thing.

[JP60]

CindyCRNA, from the moment I read your post I knew what most of the responses would be…Why no that is not scope creep…that’s easy…my goodness CindyCRNA, what’s a little drop after a fence with no stride to prepare…Why CindyCRNA, back in the day we use to jump that blind folded…

Somehow the seasoned vets of the Eventing world forget that BN 2’7" is full of potential green riders and/or green horses or both at the same time. The rule book uses the term inviting in describing what the riding should be at that level.

You have a change in lighting which can effect the confidence of the horse and or rider, you have a rather open looking fence that is not so inviting, a one foot brush is is very not inviting at BN (would that also put the height at over 3’) and a mismatched terrain front to back which is not easy to find to school.

I’ve only been at this 8 years, just touching Training so I’ll give a perspective from the cheep seats…given what you described that fence should at least have been brought up to the Rider Rep if not the TD and not appropriate for the level, even if it bends around the rules. What angers me a little is that the inexperienced rider, maybe a kid with a poor trainer, an adult at a show without a good one will not raise the question out of fear, lack of confidence in facing an experienced Official, or not even know they can challenge the fence. Even then they might get similar responses to those above, walk away swallowing their fear until it rears up before that fence.

At the last show I rode, we had a brush fence on novice that was also on a shadowed lane, maybe 8 strides in, max brush with a very imposing look. The first time I walked it gave me pause and I’m getting more comfortable with Novice. I did accept the question, but someone or enough others did not and later the brush was shortened a bit. I didn’t complain when I rode it. In it’s original state the top height was 3’5" and find me any ‘first to novice’ horse that understands they can brush it. Thank goodness Sterling can jump big.

Inviting. We’ve have two threads going on about safety in this sport, all focusing on the upper level courses as we forget that CDs are getting away with less than inviting courses near the base.

So, for my two cents, that was not an appropriately placed fence for the woods and the worst part was an uneven landing at the BN level. Maybe out in the open, maybe less tall brush and if you are going to introduce uneven terrain, it would be better to have them land up, not down.

[runNjump86]

I will admit, when I first started reading, I was in the “it’s just brush, 10” isn’t a REAL drop…" camp.

Then I looked at the picture, and even I agree that putting brush on a tiger trap is inappropriate. The horse has enough to look at without adding brush, no matter how thin or wispy it may be.

At my “home” course in Area VI there was a “steeplechase” style fence on the BN course that was part of the mini coffin. The mini coffin was an inviting coop, several strides to a small, shallow ditch, several strides to a small steeplechase style rolltop with brush. It wasn’t overly thin and wispy but it was small and inviting. IIRC they did not have a “branch” in every hole on top, more like every other one so it did not appear solid.

It was appropriate for the level. The whole point was to introduce these jumps in a small, friendly way, and it worked. I believe the coop and ditch had related strides, but the steeplechase did not, and it was never labeled ABC. In fact, last year it was changed to just the first two elements. It was about halfway through the course, and there had been other coops and rolltops along the way. So it was the same type of jump but had brush added to the top. It was solid, unlike the one the OP posted.

Like this, but at BN: https://www.google.com/search?q=Beginner+Novice+steeplechase+cross+country+jump&espv=2&biw=1242&bih=606&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwia4Z75sOTMAhUGVD4KHYJHCEUQ_AUIBigB#imgrc=r5gyc_9NoD_DmM%3A

To be honest I still have no problem with a 10" drop on the other side of a BN fence. If you walk your course you will be prepared for it.

[JP60]

[QUOTE=runNjump86;8668601]
I will admit, when I first started reading, I was in the “it’s just brush, 10” isn’t a REAL drop…" camp.

Then I looked at the picture, and even I agree that putting brush on a tiger trap is inappropriate. The horse has enough to look at without adding brush, no matter how thin or wispy it may be.

At my “home” course in Area VI there was a “steeplechase” style fence on the BN course that was part of the mini coffin. The mini coffin was an inviting coop, several strides to a small, shallow ditch, several strides to a small steeplechase style rolltop with brush. It wasn’t overly thin and wispy but it was small and inviting. IIRC they did not have a “branch” in every hole on top, more like every other one so it did not appear solid.

It was appropriate for the level. The whole point was to introduce these jumps in a small, friendly way, and it worked. I believe the coop and ditch had related strides, but the steeplechase did not, and it was never labeled ABC. In fact, last year it was changed to just the first two elements. It was about halfway through the course, and there had been other coops and rolltops along the way. So it was the same type of jump but had brush added to the top. It was solid, unlike the one the OP posted.

Like this, but at BN: https://www.google.com/search?q=Beginner+Novice+steeplechase+cross+country+jump&espv=2&biw=1242&bih=606&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwia4Z75sOTMAhUGVD4KHYJHCEUQ_AUIBigB#imgrc=r5gyc_9NoD_DmM%3A

To be honest I still have no problem with a 10" drop on the other side of a BN fence. If you walk your course you will be prepared for it.[/QUOTE]
I’m not trying to be quite contrarian, because in one way I could maybe understand the viewpoint.

When I started I was the old fart riding the old horse amongst a bunch of kids with a variety of skills and horses. There was not much work on jumping varied terrain front of back of a fence nor was there much opportunity to get experience doing so schooling.

I don’t feel it is as easy as “just walk the course” when you, as a young or old rider starting out, may not have had the opportunity to school or learn how to ride it. The first time I did a fence that had higher ground then take off was very jarring and even with verbal shouted instruction, I almost popped off. That was me as a BN rider doing a Novice fence schooling. So perhaps cut many green BN riders some slack and accept that uneven terrain before or after is not easy and does take more than basic skills to ride.

Today I feel I am a descent Rider, looking at Training for the first time, but around me are now the next generation of young riders and without good training a jump/drop would not be good for their confidence. SInce we don’t know the details of a course when we enter, it is a little unfair to many who pay, then go to discover a course that intimidates, not build confidence. Maybe not for all, but for some.

Edit: I could see this for a championship course or if in the omnibus BN was described as max or difficult.

[runNjump86]

[QUOTE=Saskatoonian;8668452]
A 10" drop is a drop in the bucket compared with the permissible drop: 3’3" according to Appendix 2 [/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=JP60;8668646]I’m not trying to be quite contrarian, because in one way I could maybe understand the viewpoint.

When I started I was the old fart riding the old horse amongst a bunch of kids with a variety of skills and horses. There was not much work on jumping varied terrain front of back of a fence nor was there much opportunity to get experience doing so schooling.

I don’t feel it is as easy as “just walk the course” when you, as a young or old rider starting out, may not have had the opportunity to school or learn how to ride it. The first time I did a fence that had higher ground then take off was very jarring and even with verbal shouted instruction, I almost popped off. That was me as a BN rider doing a Novice fence schooling. So perhaps cut many green BN riders some slack and accept that uneven terrain before or after is not easy and does take more than basic skills to ride.

Today I feel I am a descent Rider, looking at Training for the first time, but around me are now the next generation of young riders and without good training a jump/drop would not be good for their confidence. SInce we don’t know the details of a course when we enter, it is a little unfair to many who pay, then go to discover a course that intimidates, not build confidence. Maybe not for all, but for some.[/QUOTE]

JP60, while I get what you’re saying, I still disagree. I have seen many green riders at Intro/BN/N struggle with drops. I get it, it happens. I was (and still am in ways) green too. But when you read what is acceptable in the rulebook, a 10" drop is most likely due to terrain. Can it be jarring? Absolutely. But you should still be able to prepare by walking your course. Even if that means googling “how to” videos an hour before your ride.

In a perfect world, all riders would be balanced enough to not notice a 10" drop but this is reality. Not everyone has access to terrain/drops while schooling. I get that too. But it’s still not a “drop”, especially compared to what the rules allow.

[kcmel]

@runNjump86;8668601

Like this, but at BN: https://www.google.com/search?q=Beginner+Novice+steeplechase+cross+country+jump&espv=2&biw=1242&bih=606&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwia4Z75sOTMAhUGVD4KHYJHCEUQ_AUIBigB#imgrc=r5gyc_9NoD_DmM%3A

I agree, that looks like an inviting jump and a good introduction to brush.

[PaintedHunter]

[QUOTE=kcmel;8668685]
I agree, that looks like an inviting jump and a good introduction to brush.[/QUOTE]

I would jump that without hesitation, and I’m a weenie.

[tbchick84]

[QUOTE=kcmel;8668685]
I agree, that looks like an inviting jump and a good introduction to brush.[/QUOTE]

That looks like a blast, and I am a very low level eventer. I actually jumped my first brush in Elementary at Apple Knoll, and was surprised now inviting it was to my horse. I was concerned about it, but he never even looked at it. I love brush jumps.

[tbchick84]

[QUOTE=kcmel;8668685]
I agree, that looks like an inviting jump and a good introduction to brush.[/QUOTE]

That looks like a blast, and I am a very low level eventer. I actually jumped my first brush in Elementary at Apple Knoll, and was surprised now inviting it was to my horse. I was concerned about it, but he never even looked at it. I love brush jumps.

[CindyCRNA]

[QUOTE=PaintedHunter;8668744]
I would jump that without hesitation, and I’m a weenie.[/QUOTE]

Oh I totally agree!! That wasn’t it. That above is a lovely trimmed hedge. I went to their website and their posted course walk was not the same as the HT’s actual course. That pic would make it worth a thousand words. So the posted course walk isn’t the actual jumps? I’m confused…isn’t that what a course walk is?

[beowulf]

The picture that another poster posted looks very inviting, but it is a solid fence. I am not sure how I feel still about a tiger trap with brush on top. Typically, brush adorns solid fences. Hollow and airy fences like tiger traps should be left clear of obstruction so the horse can gauge it appropriately.

[yourcolorfuladdictio]

So from what I’m reading, the fence was probably maxed out and had a 10" drop, that puts the height on the back side at 3’5", taller than drop height allowed at BN. And to add brush on top of around a foot, that would also make the brush height too tall, 3’7" with brush, making the subsequent height with drop 4’5"!

I understand that most horses will brush through because there is very little brush, but many horses WILL try to clear the whole thing the first 10-15-20 times. And the point should be about safety. You can’t as a BN horse or rider to know how to safely navigate all of that at once.