Noticed a bit of level creep at an event this past weekend

[Hilary]

[QUOTE=CindyCRNA;8668493]
I’m sorry, Hilary. It was a Novice jump last year that met the new guidelines as a BN jump this year.[/QUOTE]

So you said “level creep” because: it did not meet the BN standard last year but does now? or because it was on the Novice course last year and is now on the BN course?

If it had met the BN standards last year but they had it on the N course, that does not mean it is ‘level creep’.

I am not sure what part of the rules changed for dimensions of fences - things like how many strides between a/b combinations changed, but I am not sure that the dimensions changed from last year?

Also, many many of the ‘changes’ were not actually changes, but clarifications - things that were allowed already but not specified as “you may do xyz”. Now the pendulum is swinging back to much more specifics, which have always been in the course designers guidelines, are in the rulebook.

People read the rulebook more frequently than the guidelines for course design.

[faybe]

It is extremely common for events to use the same portables at different levels. Portables usually are not built exactly to the level specs, but smaller, so they can be blocked up if needed or used for multiple levels. You can even get away with using portables built for the level above by digging them into the ground so they are smaller, as long as their widths are ok. I’ve seen training level sized portables used on intermediate courses- the terrain is what matters. But competitors recognize a fence from year to year, and tend to panic when a fence that was a level higher one year is now a level lower. Just because it was on the novice course one year doesn’t mean it is a novice fence, it may very well be a BN spec built portable that was blocked up for novice last year. Not trying to poo-poo your concerns, it does sound like there was a lot going on at that fence, just something to keep in mind in general when walking courses year to year.

[yourcolorfuladdictio]

[QUOTE=yourcolorfuladdiction;8668998]
So from what I’m reading, the fence was probably maxed out and had a 10" drop, that puts the height on the back side at 3’5", taller than drop height allowed at BN. And to add brush on top of around a foot, that would also make the brush height too tall, 3’7" with brush, making the subsequent height with drop 4’5"!

I understand that most horses will brush through because there is very little brush, but many horses WILL try to clear the whole thing the first 10-15-20 times. And the point should be about safety. You can’t as a BN horse or rider to know how to safely navigate all of that at once.[/QUOTE]

Since the two people on P2 don’t seem to have read.

[faybe]

No, I read what you wrote, though I’m not sure you read what I wrote. I also said it sounds like a lot was going on. I disregarded your specs because, assuming this was a recognized event, those numbers just would not occur. And if they did, several officials need to be fired, because they are supposed to measure when they inspect the courses. And did a single rider or coach who walked the course say anything about a supposed 4’5 drop on BN? No, because I simply do not believe it existed.

Again, I do not doubt that this was a problem fence with what sounds like too much going on for BN, but I call BS on those speculations, yourcolorfuladdiction.

[Highflyer]

Just out of curiosity, OP, was this the fence?

https://s3.amazonaws.com/MCW_production/fimgs/101420/medium/beg_13.JPG?1462761587

https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13179340_999017456843095_1046300738524165830_n.jpg?oh=b4ca1286efad88e1b6b2d9d8a8e453af&oe=57DB7C50

[FatDinah]

My BN eventing experience was 20 years ago and it seems jumps were much c simpler and more “inviting” and there was a lot more success for riders and horses. If a significant percentage of riders/horses are refusing or falling at a jump, that ought to be more meaningful than an abstract set of rules and show the fence is too much for that level.

[yourcolorfuladdictio]

[QUOTE=faybe;8669138]
No, I read what you wrote, though I’m not sure you read what I wrote. I also said it sounds like a lot was going on. I disregarded your specs because, assuming this was a recognized event, those numbers just would not occur. And if they did, several officials need to be fired, because they are supposed to measure when they inspect the courses. And did a single rider or coach who walked the course say anything about a supposed 4’5 drop on BN? No, because I simply do not believe it existed.

Again, I do not doubt that this was a problem fence with what sounds like too much going on for BN, but I call BS on those speculations, yourcolorfuladdiction.[/QUOTE]

If the fence Highflyer posted IS the jump, then it’s over maximum height, unless that photo is an optical illusion. It comes up past chest height on that horse (including the brush), so that’s either a pony or a novice jump in BN. With the ground sloping away from the base of the backside, I’d suspect the jump looks bigger on the backside. I wish the OP measured that jump. It looks like something that belongs on a Novice course.

[faybe]

The fence the OP posted is a bing search of cross country jumps, not from the event itself. For the fence pictured to have been used on BN (assuming the spread is not too wide, I can’t tell from the picture) it would have had to have been dug into the ground to make it small enough (see my previous post).

[CindyCRNA]

[QUOTE=Highflyer;8669166]
Just out of curiosity, OP, was this the fence?

https://s3.amazonaws.com/MCW_production/fimgs/101420/medium/beg_13.JPG?1462761587

https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13179340_999017456843095_1046300738524165830_n.jpg?oh=b4ca1286efad88e1b6b2d9d8a8e453af&oe=57DB7C50[/QUOTE]

YES! The top photo is the exact jump but it was embellished like the bottom photo which appears to be a different venue as I don’t recognize the background. The shade it is in in the top photo is the same shade that the jump was in for duration of the BN cc. Oh thank you!! I was asking around who had that photo! The ground is lower on the backside and then slopes up a tiny bit. The pic doesn’t really show the back side. While the landing side is lower, it is fairly minimal.

[Highflyer]

I should have clarified last night-- I think the second photo is a Novice or Training sized version at the same event (it was posted on the event’s FB page-- the first photo is from their BN coursewalk posted on mycoursewalks.com).

I actually think the brush makes it significantly friendlier, and no I don’t think it appears (at least from photos) to be inappropriate.

[faybe]

[QUOTE=Highflyer;8669453]
I actually think the brush makes it significantly friendlier, and no I don’t think it appears (at least from photos) to be inappropriate.[/QUOTE]

Agree. I’m surprised it caused so many problems, I really think they were trying to soften the question by using the brush, though it sounds like it did not work as intended. It looks like an excellent introduction to brush, and honestly more of a rider fence than something the horses would care about.

[Chouteau]

I don’t mind “level creep” - I want to see more technical questions at lower heights with a few more strides in between so we are ready for them when we move up.
That being said, I was at this event and did not think this was a fair question for BN (I’m sure it was completely within the guidelines but considering this was the first event of the season in our area) - the jump on flat ground would have been fine but few riders rode the drop on the backside well.

[CindyCRNA]

[QUOTE=Chouteau;8669575]
I don’t mind “level creep” - I want to see more technical questions at lower heights with a few more strides in between so we are ready for them when we move up.
That being said, I was at this event and did not think this was a fair question for BN (I’m sure it was completely within the guidelines but considering this was the first event of the season in our area) - the jump on flat ground would have been fine but few riders rode the drop on the backside well.[/QUOTE]

I agree. While legal, it was just one too many things going on for a BN jump. So happy to get your prospective as someone who was there.

[NCRider]

[QUOTE=CindyCRNA;8669581]
I agree. While legal, it was just one too many things going on for a BN jump. So happy to get your prospective as someone who was there.[/QUOTE]

I’m totally confused. I don’t understand why adding brush to a fence makes it friendlier. I could understand if you swapped out a 3 foot fence with a 2’6" sold fence with 6" of brush on top of the solid part but how in the world is a 3 foot solid foot fence with 6" of brush on top (total 3’6") friendlier than a 3 foot fence?

[The_Centaurian]

Vertical lines on a jump are much harder to jump than horizontal ones, and see-through jumps are harder to jump than solid ones. This little tiger trap, all by itself, is a hard question.

I would rather see a plain coop or log, something solid, placed in the location you described with the transition to shade and little drop, this tiger trap jump in an inviting location as a galloping question, and the brush on a third, inviting fence. If it were a maximum height brush, then perhaps even as the second jump in a related distance.

While nothing about the fence or location is against the rules, it is a really tough question.

[CindyCRNA]

https://scontent-ord1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13239283_10210206602584568_1883009577750089081_n.jpg?oh=baf7757a7889ab1ae295b41d56c2ec5f&oe=57DA94FC

I am hoping this worked. Here is the jump in action. I still don’t know what I think.

[Bensmom]

I’ve been thinking a lot about course design this week, and was talking to DH yesterday about how jumps can be within the rules, but depending on how they are placed and how many questions they ask, can be totally inappropriate for the level.

And, how, if the system works the way it is supposed to, riders do as JP60 describes below:

I’ve only been at this 8 years, just touching Training so I’ll give a perspective from the cheep seats…given what you described that fence should at least have been brought up to the Rider Rep if not the TD and not appropriate for the level, even if it bends around the rules. What angers me a little is that the inexperienced rider, maybe a kid with a poor trainer, an adult at a show without a good one will not raise the question out of fear, lack of confidence in facing an experienced Official, or not even know they can challenge the fence. Even then they might get similar responses to those above, walk away swallowing their fear until it rears up before that fence.

(Emphasis mine)

Do riders not understand that they can ask these questions? That the rider rep system is there for this reason?

I spoke to a Prelim competitor this week that a) didn’t know she could consult a rider rep, and b) said she would be terrified to do so because she’d be afraid she would be told she was stupid with no idea what she was talking about, and that her trainer would be angry at her for rocking the boat.

Do we need a campaign that encourages riders to ask questions and to challenge things that don’t seem safe? Ultimately, if a rider walks the course and knows they aren’t prepared for a question on the course, it is their responsibility to seek a solution, or understanding through the system that exists, and if those things don’t resolve the feeling of being unprepared, they will have to make the decision to withdraw.

Maybe a campaign to educate riders as to when and where to ask questions? It never occurred to me until this week that people might not know how to do this, but I was staff before I was ever a competitor, so I was fortunate enough to know how it worked before I got started from the other side.

[Equisis]

Cindy, the last photo you posted, the jump appears to have a black flag (training). Am I just seeing things?

I think the placement of the jump is what gives me pause here. After seeing the photos, I agree that the addition of brush makes the tiger trap more inviting (makes it more solid), and tiger traps are not particularly inviting fences. However, it may still be a spooky fence for BN, and while a BN pair should be able to navigate downhill jumps and changes in lighting, pairing both of those factors with a looky fence is, IMHO, questionable. Downhill jumps tend to encourage backwards riding, especially at the lowest levels, and a spooky fence doesn’t mix well with that. A downhill shadowed fence should be inviting, and a lookier jump should be in a level, lighted place, to encourage a positive forward ride. It is important to have courses at BN that encourage horses and riders to go forward and jump boldly, as they need to develop these skills to be successful at the more technical levels to come.

[FLeventer]

[QUOTE=CindyCRNA;8670130]
https://scontent-ord1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13239283_10210206602584568_1883009577750089081_n.jpg?oh=baf7757a7889ab1ae295b41d56c2ec5f&oe=57DA94FC

I am hoping this worked. Here is the jump in action. I still don’t know what I think.[/QUOTE]

This is the BN jump with the drop?? That’s quite a dip on the landing side for a schooling show BN. I could see it at Novice, but I wouldn’t want to take my green as grass TB to his first BN and hit that on course.

I don’t have an issue with the jump or the brush. In fact, when pictures were first shown of the jump in question, I could not see the issue besides light to dark and shadows which are not exactly an issue with this fence. I think that it allows some room for error and a forward ride.

But the backside of this fence isn’t exactly what I would call appropriate for a level that touts having fences that are a straightforward and simple introduction to eventing. That’s just me though.

The riders is going to be asking the horse to keep momentum and if it peeks, it will jostle or unbalance the rider and cause an issue on the landing which is not a flat landing.

No I would not want to take my young horses over that fence with the dip. Would I? Yes, of course I would, but I would be asking the person in charge or the CD if they really think it is a fence that works for BN.

[CindyCRNA]

[QUOTE=FLeventer;8670515]
This is the BN jump with the drop?? That’s quite a dip on the landing side for a schooling show BN. I could see it at Novice, but I wouldn’t want to take my green as grass TB to his first BN and hit that on course.

I don’t have an issue with the jump or the brush. In fact, when pictures were first shown of the jump in question, I could not see the issue besides light to dark and shadows which are not exactly an issue with this fence. I think that it allows some room for error and a forward ride.

But the backside of this fence isn’t exactly what I would call appropriate for a level that touts having fences that are a straightforward and simple introduction to eventing. That’s just me though.

The riders is going to be asking the horse to keep momentum and if it peeks, it will jostle or unbalance the rider and cause an issue on the landing which is not a flat landing.

No I would not want to take my young horses over that fence with the dip. Would I? Yes, of course I would, but I would be asking the person in charge or the CD if they really think it is a fence that works for BN.[/QUOTE]

Equisis, this was definitely a BN jump. This is the jump prior to the embellishments. https://s3.amazonaws.com/MCW_production/fimgs/101420/medium/beg_13.JPG?1462761587

FlEventer, my concern also. The rider that fell at this jump was jolted on landing, possibly not realizing the fall on the backside was as much as it was. Of course, that could have been noted on the course walk but this rider suffered a concussion. I think it was a bit much for BN.