Do you know if this was definitely fence 13 on the BN course? When I searched for pictures, I noticed that the results were posted on Startbox, and going back and looking at the detailed xc results it appears that across all the BN divisions, there was one stop and one RF at fence 13 on BN.
Do riders not understand that they can ask these questions? That the rider rep system is there for this reason?
I hate to hear that a prelim rider would be so tentative to approach the rider rep, that’s what they are there for (of course I am in area IV, if the rider rep was Boyd, I might not be so comfortable with it:)
The rider rep for this event even posted on FB a few days before to be sure everyone knew and invited competitors to reach out to her with any concerns - I thought that was a great idea and I will be doing the same when I am the rep next month.
[QUOTE=Highflyer;8670615]
Do you know if this was definitely fence 13 on the BN course? When I searched for pictures, I noticed that the results were posted on Startbox, and going back and looking at the detailed xc results it appears that across all the BN divisions, there was one stop and one RF at fence 13 on BN.[/QUOTE]
Chouteau posted the pictures but am not sure if that was number 13 on the actual day of the course. Do they not record rider falls? Because I stayed with the rider that fell at that jump.
I wonder if anyone did ask the rider rep any questions about that jump? I am assuming if it met regulations, a person having concern would be noted but nothing done.
And can I admit I had never heard of such a thing as a rider rep? :sadsmile:
They do record rider falls. If you go to eventingscores and look under the detailed cross country results for the division it shows all penalties.
It looks like they ran 5 divisions of BN, 4 of which had no penalties at the fence, and 1 of which had 1 stop and 1 fall.
From looking at the pics I’m still on the fence. I suspect the fence looked pretty friendly from the front and then the dip behind made the landing ride poorly, esp if horses spooked at the brush. That combined with the shadows I don’t love. But assuming it was within the size specs of BN, and given its place on the course, I don’t know if that would be enough for me to complain.
Rider reps–I appreciate the idea, and have talked to a few, but have never been aware of a course change due to a rider rep conversation. Anyone? (In several cases, I’ve talked to rider reps who agreed with my concerns but said they had already brought them to the TD and been brushed off).
I like that fence a lot, particularly with the brush, and the landing wouldn’t bother me at all - though I’d note it walking the course and be ready for it. Sounds like it didn’t cause many problems either - bummer, OP, that you were there for the big one. That always makes a big impression.
Have to say, reading these comments, that the problems I’m reading about aren’t in the jump as described or as pictured, but in prep - training and course walks. Sometimes a jump makes a rider uncomfortable because the rider hasn’t trained well enough to be ready for it - not because it’s unfair. If the rider is surprised by a landing a little lower than takeoff, that’s a course walking problem, not a course design problem.
I love what the OP is doing - paying attention to the jump and all of its elements and how it’s riding and why, and going home and training for it. This is the type of rider who’s not going to go out and be surprised because she’s prepared. Yeah, there’s going to be a bobble here and there - some horses need a little more riding to jumps in fence lines, or ditches, or shadows, or whatever - that’s knowing your horse and it comes with time.
[QUOTE=Chouteau;8670642]
I hate to hear that a prelim rider would be so tentative to approach the rider rep, that’s what they are there for (of course I am in area IV, if the rider rep was Boyd, I might not be so comfortable with it:)
The rider rep for this event even posted on FB a few days before to be sure everyone knew and invited competitors to reach out to her with any concerns - I thought that was a great idea and I will be doing the same when I am the rep next month.[/QUOTE]
I love the rep who posted on Facebook - that is a great idea and something I’ll keep in mind for the future! I was supposed to be a RR at Penny Oaks and looking forward to my first time in that role, but since it turned into a CT… 
ETA: I think some events are better than others in posting the Reps in an obvious spot and I’ve always thought it would be nice if they sent an email to competitors pre-event with the information.
I have experienced several course changes thanks to rider reps at Area VIII events. Fences pulled off course due to less than optimal footing and one time a part of a combination pulled off course at Training because many thought the question was too technical (Up mound, jump skinny at top, two or three strides to skinny jumping down other side of mound - they removed the first skinny).
[QUOTE=CindyCRNA;8670903]
Chouteau posted the pictures but am not sure if that was number 13 on the actual day of the course. Do they not record rider falls? Because I stayed with the rider that fell at that jump.
I wonder if anyone did ask the rider rep any questions about that jump? I am assuming if it met regulations, a person having concern would be noted but nothing done.
And can I admit I had never heard of such a thing as a rider rep? :sadsmile:[/QUOTE]
Sure, no judgy pants here! :lol: But, this really leads me to wonder if the sport does need an awareness campaign – something with a catchy hashtage like the #seesomethingsaysomething one, so that people are more likely to ask questions.
If there is no problem with the jump, at least then the rider rep or the TD can explain why not, and a rider ends up more educated on why the jump is ok, and knows whether they have enough training and experience to ride the fence or not.
I really think this is a way riders can take more responsibility for seeing that courses are well designed and safe. I think that is why the system of rider reps was established, right? Because riders didn’t always feel comfortable challenging things with officials, so a more experienced rider, often a pro, is appointed to bring concerns to the ground jury/TD. It is a great system, but if riders don’t know to ask questions, it doesn’t work.
And Chouteau, my friend was more intimidated by the idea of questioning anything of the “establishment” (i.e. officials) and by the potential disapproval of her trainer than by the ULRs that frequently serve as rider reps. If it were more common, maybe she wouldn’t have been? After me lecturing about it over the last few days, I don’t think she’ll ever hesitate again! 
I am a safety nerd, and tend to operate under the “that doesn’t seem right, maybe I should say something” plan. (Or maybe it is the lawyer in me wanting warn of potential liabilities! :lol: ) But, I’d like to encourage others to do the same. In the end, the only people that have to deal with an injury to me or my horse are me and my family, and if I don’t think something is a question I’m ready for or that is above my level, I want to see if the TD will make an adjustment rather than withdraw.
I also love when course design at BN is set up to be supporting and a true learning experience for the horse and rider. One of my favorite courses was at Pine Top years ago, where Glen had flagged the up bank, but not the down bank. The horse/rider still had the schooling experience of the down bank without worrying about the horse taking a step back or doing something that was scored as a refusal. You still had to get down, but it seemed less threatening than a down bank I’d flipped over at a previous course. (My horse stayed on the bank and allowed me to do an aerial flip down it. Courteous of him ).
In any event – sorry for derailing your thread! 
[QUOTE=Bensmom;8671036]
I also love when course design at BN is set up to be supporting and a true learning experience for the horse and rider. One of my favorite courses was at Pine Top years ago, where Glen had flagged the up bank, but not the down bank. The horse/rider still had the schooling experience of the down bank without worrying about the horse taking a step back or doing something that was scored as a refusal. You still had to get down …[/QUOTE]
I like this idea. It would be even nicer if the drops were built sided with a passage ramp so a rider can choose what they want to attempt. And not flagging it and giving them the option settles alot of rider anxiety. This notion satisfies me vs the dumbing down of all LL courses. Some riders want to challenge themselves, others not. I also love the schooling trials that flag optional fences so riders can build confidence at their own pace before riding recognized. I think this is a major piece that is missing.
If I remember this fence correctly the approach is also downhill, towards the finish. The view on the backside is also downhill. The horses want to barrel and be a bit hard to rebalance, and even my pretty experienced N riders wanted to clutch and shut their horses down, get there underpowered, land in a heap and get drug down the hill. If you get to it on a slight left-to-right slice it’s a flatter approach and puts your eye up the hill so it’s a lot easier to ride forward to it and then drift back down the hill to your track.
That said, it’s still a lot going on for the first event of the season.
I’d love to take a poll and see which of the riders on this post that had no problem with the fence are riding Training or Novice and above and which are BN riders. I think that would make a difference in the opinions.
[QUOTE=enjoytheride;8673403]
I’d love to take a poll and see which of the riders on this post that had no problem with the fence are riding Training or Novice and above and which are BN riders. I think that would make a difference in the opinions.[/QUOTE]
I think there are too many other variables though. For example, how green is the horse/rider to the level, what schooling opportunities are available, etc.
I just did my 6th BN, but I still think the BN courses around here are pretty tough (Fair Hill and Plantation for example). At Fair Hill we had a close to max somewhat looky jump downhill with ~3 strides to a ditch. At Plantation there are several downhill jumps at BN, including, as I mentioned earlier on the thread, a sunken road question.
But I am fortunate that I am able to school at Boyd’s, and he has many BN/novice height upper level questions on his course. I don’t think that jump would bother my horse, since he has schooled lots of brush, although he can still be sticky at other types of jumps (which is why we are still at BN).
But I really wouldn’t expect to see brush at BN (and I don’t think I have), and if a BN rider hasn’t had the opportunity to school brush/terrain I would say that is a tough jump for the level.
kcmel - in my first comment I did have that I thought it was a difficult question for the first event of the season in Area IV… I removed the area IV part because I didn’t want to explain/get into another discussion but it is true - you are going to find softer courses (& that’s what the local riders are accustomed to) in the mid-west than in area II. Not that I have competed out there but when I was qualified for and dreaming of my first 1* (which hasn’t happed yet) and eyeing Virginia my friend that moved from here to there a few years ago warned me. If this jump was on course out there I’m not sure we would be having this conversation. I do think there is a place for and I am always looking for venues known for softer courses or tougher courses depending on what my horse and I need, the courses here are in general much softer and unfortunatley they need to be that way to be inviting to allow as many people as possible to compete. Totally derailing the thread but the sport is struggling to survive here, the closing date for our local HT is Tuesday, they currently have 44 entries… we lost one event in the region last year and there is a very good chance we are about to loose another.
[QUOTE=Chouteau;8673552]
kcmel - in my first comment I did have that I thought it was a difficult question for the first event of the season in Area IV… I removed the area IV part because I didn’t want to explain/get into another discussion but it is true - you are going to find softer courses (& that’s what the local riders are accustomed to) in the mid-west than in area II. Not that I have competed out there but when I was qualified for and dreaming of my first 1* (which hasn’t happed yet) and eyeing Virginia my friend that moved from here to there a few years ago warned me. If this jump was on course out there I’m not sure we would be having this conversation. I do think there is a place for and I am always looking for venues known for softer courses or tougher courses depending on what my horse and I need, the courses here are in general much softer and unfortunatley they need to be that way to be inviting to allow as many people as possible to compete. Totally derailing the thread but the sport is struggling to survive here, the closing date for our local HT is Tuesday, they currently have 44 entries.… we lost one event in the region last year and there is a very good chance we are about to loose another.[/QUOTE]
Oh wow! Do you know how many for last year? LV had 170 entries with I think 160 competing. I did Catalpa last year and they had about 175 entries (we are doing again this year).
I started eventing 3 years ago after years and years of trail riding (in a dressage saddle jumping every log we could!) My mare had been started eventing and we were doing BN moving up to Novice when she tore a suspensory. Drug my TB in from 2 years at pasture and said “You’re up!” and we started at square one so my whopping 3 years experience has all been at starter and BN. I have jumped brush…ok, grooming brushes glued to the top of a jump! And some “fringe”. But this (to me) had 1 thing too much going on. A fringe on top maybe 6" at the most but many of these stuck up 10-12". I see though from the stats taken after the show that not many had issue with the jump.
Very interesting thread. I’m a true weenie eventer and I really think some of the opinions and responses are varied based on the level of rider. I bet some riders here who say “oh no big deal” ride ABOVE BN LEVEL.
[QUOTE=Fancy That;8673846]
Very interesting thread. I’m a true weenie eventer and I really think some of the opinions and responses are varied based on the level of rider. I bet some riders here who say “oh no big deal” ride ABOVE BN LEVEL. :)[/QUOTE]
At first when I looked at it, it wasnt a big deal. But as someone who has a lot of green baby horses coming up the levels, I think if I really want to get them over it and how they may jump it. I know one that would peek on landing and I have another who would take it all in stride.
I used to be one that was like get over it, the jump is within specs. Then I started helping put courses together for schooling shows and for recognized HTs when I worked at RH. My perspective changed and I realized that sometimes its better to have a good ride and a good course than to have issues with a boogey fence. At BN it should be straight forward.
[QUOTE=Fancy That;8673846]
Very interesting thread. I’m a true weenie eventer and I really think some of the opinions and responses are varied based on the level of rider. I bet some riders here who say “oh no big deal” ride ABOVE BN LEVEL. :)[/QUOTE]
Admittedly I am one of those who has ridden above BN level, but while this particular fence wouldn’t bother me at all, I really dislike seeing combinations (or “combinations” that aren’t flagged A/B but make it difficult to not present to the second fence) at BN involving ditches, banks, and water. I did the unrecognized Fair Hill event BN Kcmel referenced a couple of weeks ago and was not at all pleased with how it walked or rode for my pretty green horse.
So I do get where you guys are coming from, and I’m not really sure what the answer is, although I would definitely agree that more options would be nice, and sometimes this can be as easy as flagging some of the smaller Novice stuff as black flag options.
I rode at N years ago (not competing now but still jumping xc) and this particular fence, while inviting-looking to me, does seem like a lot for the first event of the season at BN.
Prior to our first unrecognized little event of the season, I volunteered to fill in the brush boxes that were on both the N and BN courses. I filled them thickly with just a very small “fringe” on top to soften the square top. They all rode very nicely.
We do have a BN brush jump (coop with small bushes behind it) but it’s been jumped so much that there is a “gap” in the greenery - rides very nicely too, nothing to brush through if you aim dead center
I agree with you, Cindy. Rain and I competed at BN at this event. I haven’t competed at N yet but am planning to the next time out. After walking the course, this fence was pretty much the only thing my friend and I talked about, because it seemed like a tougher question than we expected. I was thinking that that Rain would land far enough out for it not even to feel like a drop. He is game and jumped it without hesitation but definitely kind of stumbled on the landing. I think he was surprised because we have not schooled those types of fences. But we got it together and carried on.
I had responded earlier before the photo was linked in. I still think it’s something I’d expect or would anticipate that I could see on a BN course— but may be not the first course of the year. In reference to the question about rider level I’ve competed only starter and BN (one full season of recognized but was ready to move up to Novice before horse coliced and didn’t make it).
I’m in Area VIII and I feel like I’m fairly fortunate in that we have a lot of areas open for schooling that have jumps with drop landings and downhill approaches, and our schooling shows almost always have at least one brush fence. We have one local schooling venue that has more terrain, lots of tree lined areas, etc than we’ll probably ever see in this area at a recognized show, which was my test to determine if I was ready to move up from starter to BN. While I’ve schooled some fences like this with my new guy I’ve purposely entered a venue that’s ridiculously flat for our first time out. I will say that over the winter we went to Aiken and I found the schooling show we did to be humbling-- more terrain and beefier jumps than most places up here.
