[QUOTE=SnicklefritzG;8388493]
I discussed this very question with a well-known breeder and got a great answer. Wouldn’t mind sharing the details via PM for those who are interested.[/QUOTE]
I would be very interested in this answer! It’s a very enticing question.
I am! Please p/m the details.
And thank you 
[QUOTE=rascalpony;8388470]
I saw the list of some of the mares who have been booked to AP - which means obviously they could still opt elsewhere, but they did consider him.
To my very inexpert eye, they seem like really classy mares for an unproven stallion, even if he is a TC winner. However, that TC winner resume is flashy - bred with a good mare, his first foals will bring great prices at auction, which is probably what most of the resulting foals would be aimed for.
I’ve gotta say, coming from a seemingly hard-headed stallion like Empire Maker (and his dam, who was known for her crankiness as well as her producing ability), Pioneerof the Nile and AP seem like total puppy dogs. I read an article somewhere where the guys at WinStar were gushing over how sweet and huggable and level-headed Pioneerof the Nile was - like his son. I wonder where that came in? I don’t know about Empire Maker’s personality. I remember somebody saying that he could’ve won anything - but he only chose to win certain things. I’m not sure if that’s true because he never finished worse than third, it appears. I also remember Bobby Frankel saying something along the lines of him being as stubborn as his mother during the Kentucky Derby broadcast that year. Maybe I am mis-remembering though, because that personality seems to have skipped his son and grandson![/QUOTE]
Considering PotN’s lower libido and kinder temperament AND the fact he and his son are both Rig’s seems to be scientific to theorize that has something to do with it.
I’m curious about something regarding American Pharoah as a breeding stallion that goes in a slightly different direction. He has such a jaw-dropping motion–so fluid, efficient, smooth. During the live running of his Belmont, I actually gasped, “OH my GOD!” out loud watching him move when the cameras switched to a certain angle on the backstretch.
Beyond the pedigree aspects of it and more into the pure genetics of things, how likely is it that sort of motion can and will be reproduced in his offspring? I’d think such an efficient running style would also make them speedy, but of course as a mere fan, I have no true idea.
[QUOTE=Texarkana;8389717]
The dam and the female family gets most of the credit when breeding race horses.
For anyone who may be curious about how horses are marketed and advertised, here is Littleprincessemma’s catalog page, which is how she or any horse being sold for racing or breeding is evaluated in a sales catalog:
http://www.equineline.com/dotFreePortfolioReport.cfm?download_pdf_list=32238258&dl_type=pdf
The sire generates interest and somewhat dictates the price range, but it’s all about the dams and what they have produced.[/QUOTE]
I wasn’t speaking of AP’s dam when I made my comment. I would respectfully disagree with your first sentence. Successful race horses are most often identified with their sire first…all we hear about is PoTN.
Reading the NY Times article referenced below by FatDinah, Baffert gives credit for AP’s success to PoTN and HIS dam.
If Littleprincessemma had not produced AP her catalog page would be somewhat bleak in what she had produced…she has no race record to speak of. Her pedigree on her dam’s side is old FL, her dam produced a couple useful race horses out of 12 foals. Her sire, a useful racehorse, hasn’t produced much from 9 crops and even less as the sire of dams of stakes winners, AP excluded.
She sure scored with AP. Would be nice to see her name mentioned as often as we hear about PoTN or even Empire Maker (See the back cover of the last several Blood-Horse magazines).
It will be interesting to see what she produces in the future. And if she is bred to a Tapit or a War Front.
AP’s female family has not produced anything like him, but I would in fact bet money that’s where he gets his temper. My horse Lucky’s second dam (Miami Queen 79) is a Fred Hooper mare and a full sister to AP’s fourth dam (Queen Zetta 76.) Lucky is and per his last trainer at least always has been the most laid-back, easy-mannered horse. Stands quiet (one reason I bought him was in his sales picture he was standing in front of a working hotwalker machine out in the middle of the barns, looking mildly interested about his surroundings with the lead just clipped to a halter ring), easy to gallop, rates, no spook to speak of, generally well-mannered about everything you do with him (for reference, if I need to clean his sheath, I just do it-no need to get the vet involved, no tranquilizers. Including with a cold hose with Michigan in January.) Apparently the only thing that weirds him out was his first snow (he was bred and raced mostly in Florida and was moderately boggled by this strange white stuff) and sneaky giant pieces of farm equipment barreling down the road unexpectedly while he’s being ridden. Since I saw his female family I’ve never had any doubt that AP’s sweet temper comes from Fred Hooper’s mares.
ETA: It’s Pedigreequery, so take it with a grain of salt, but they indicate Littleprincessemma is in foal to Tapit for 2016, so we’ll see what that does. Personally, I’d plan to send her back to PotN. I mean, no, lightning might not strike twice, but I’d sure like to try for it.
The media and common lingo may refer more heavily toward sires, but Texarkana is right in saying that the dam and female family is very important in determining a horse’s value.
If you’ve ever read a catalog page, there is about 20% info on the sire, and 80% info on the female family. A stallion prospect is worth much more depending who his dam is, not the sire. That’s why Lord Helpus (and others…) may rather breed to Honor Code, instead of American Pharoah.
The common fan may not see credit given to the damline, but breeders (and buyers at the sales) certainly do.
[QUOTE=EventerAJ;8390384]
The media and common lingo may refer more heavily toward sires, but Texarkana is right in saying that the dam and female family is very important in determining a horse’s value.
If you’ve ever read a catalog page, there is about 20% info on the sire, and 80% info on the female family. A stallion prospect is worth much more depending who his dam is, not the sire. That’s why Lord Helpus (and others…) may rather breed to Honor Code, instead of American Pharoah.
The common fan may not see credit given to the damline, but breeders (and buyers at the sales) certainly do.[/QUOTE]
My original comment had nothing to do with “determining a horse’s value”. Nor did it have anything to do with advertising or marketing race horses. You might want to (re)read my post.
Littleprincessemma’s page, apart from AP, is light, IMO. But if you are here at Keeneland maybe we could get together and discuss a few catalog pages. I’ve been involved in the TB industry somewhat longer than 5 years.
I was the poster who agreed with Lord Helpus regarding Honor Code.
[QUOTE=Sunlight Star;8390620]
My original comment had nothing to do with “determining a horse’s value”. Nor did it have anything to do with advertising or marketing race horses. You might want to (re)read my post.
Littleprincessemma’s page, apart from AP, is light, IMO. But if you are here at Keeneland maybe we could get together and discuss a few catalog pages. I’ve been involved in the TB industry somewhat longer than 5 years.
I was the poster who agreed with Lord Helpus regarding Honor Code.[/QUOTE]
EventerAJ is just emphasizing the point that the value of a racehorse is predominately determined by the value of its broodmare. With this being a forum on a non-racing website, we get a lot of visitors here who understand zero about the industry. So when there are statements like “dams don’t get enough credit” and “the female family is less important than the sire,” there his a HIGH likelihood those comments will be taken out of context.
And I still disagree with your second statement. The female family is equally as important. Sires get the focus because it’s easier to talk about them. They have many foals on the ground and were memorable racehorses themselves-- you can make comparisons and generalizations between the offspring more easily. You can say “Tapit” and everyone in the room can form some sort of opinion on what the foal will inherit. But at the end of the day, the amount of value a sire can add to a foal has a limit if the female family is not there.
We all agree Littleprincessemma’s page is light. It’s been discussed at length on this very forum… just like Honor Code has been discussed at length… I’m sorry if you thought it was posting it for an opinion. I only linked to it as an example of a catalog page in general with a “familiar” horse since the majority of people on this forum have never even seen a catalog page.
Coolmore just released that his stud fee will be $200,000.
[QUOTE=Lauruffian;8390250]
I’m curious about something regarding American Pharoah as a breeding stallion that goes in a slightly different direction. He has such a jaw-dropping motion–so fluid, efficient, smooth. During the live running of his Belmont, I actually gasped, “OH my GOD!” out loud watching him move when the cameras switched to a certain angle on the backstretch.
Beyond the pedigree aspects of it and more into the pure genetics of things, how likely is it that sort of motion can and will be reproduced in his offspring? I’d think such an efficient running style would also make them speedy, but of course as a mere fan, I have no true idea.[/QUOTE]
Agreed on his movement. Every time I see him run, I find myself hoping/wishing that Deb Bennett would do a gait analysis article on him. I’d be really interested in seeing how he compares to Secretariat, who she proved ran “straight”, and that added considerably to his skill on the track.
I always have thought that he has/had one of the prettiest gallop strides I’d ever seen, so effortless. That video of his 2-year-old training breeze was jaw opening to say the least. Baffert also was constantly mentioning AP’s body “mechanics” when he was talking about him.
Hopefully, some combination of disposition, brains, and locomotion will transfer through into at least some of his offspring.
[QUOTE=spotnnotfarm;8390665]
Coolmore just released that his stud fee will be $200,000.[/QUOTE]
Just about spit my morning coffee all over the monitor when I saw that this morning. Better grab the $ before the 2 year olds hit the track for the first time. I also wonder of his book, how many mares will be paying full price vs a lower, incentive price…
The recent Equus magazine had a nice section on AP comparing him to other Triple Crown winners and also discussing his gait and body mechanics.
[QUOTE=ravenclaw;8385234]
I know Three Chimneys rides/exercises their stallions. Do any other farms do this? I don’t know the logistics or if some insurance companies might not allow it, but I think it’s a good thing. You just have to look at pictures of the Three Chimneys stallions to see that they are in good, healthy shape. Not fat puddings like you see at other farms.[/QUOTE]
There was a good article on my Facebook news feed about the Winstar stallions being ridden and exercised in the off season:
Snaffle had already mentioned they get exercised earlier in the thread, but I thought others may like to read!
Great article. Kudos to Winstar, I had no idea they rode the boys. They look very happy and relaxed.
Personally, I would send Littleprincessemma to Empire Maker this year.
[QUOTE=Texarkana;8395034]
There was a good article on my Facebook news feed about the Winstar stallions being ridden and exercised in the off season:
Snaffle had already mentioned they get exercised earlier in the thread, but I thought others may like to read![/QUOTE]
Thanks for sharing! Best quote: “In addition to keeping the stallions in shape, riding them also keeps them happy. Even the older horses, who just go for a walk around the paddocks look like they enjoy getting out and about during their time under the tack.”
As solitary as their lives need to be, I think they really do enjoy a chance to get out and see more of the world than just a stall or breeding shed.
Tex, thanks for posting that link! It would be so cool to have the job of riding those stallions.
ETA: It’s Pedigreequery, so take it with a grain of salt, but they indicate Littleprincessemma is in foal to Tapit for 2016, so we’ll see what that does. Personally, I’d plan to send her back to PotN. I mean, no, lightning might not strike twice, but I’d sure like to try for it.
I believe she has two others by him - a filly, possibly named Little Hatshepsut, and another colt, named Irish Pharaoh (spelled correctly!). Those horses, if sold, will definitely bring quite a lot. I imagine they used Tapit for 2016 because the product of the hottest stallion around right now (with a great winning %) and the dam of a Triple Crown winner is going to bring in some big bucks.
I think Irish Pharaoh is a yearling and the last picture I saw, looks like he’ll grow up bigger than AP (and looks more like Mom). And at least as far as Brisnet, equineline and the JC names book are concerned “Little Hatshepsut” isn’t named or reserve (IP’s name is on reserve so he’s not registered that yet.) So she’s still legally unnamed.
And at least as far as Brisnet, equineline and the JC names book are concerned “Little Hatshepsut” isn’t named or reserve (IP’s name is on reserve so he’s not registered that yet.) So she’s still legally unnamed.
No, I don’t think they’ve done anything yet. Oddly though, there is already a FB profile for her, where they mentioned Little Hatshepsut as her most likely name. Legally, though, yes, still unnamed, and there’s definitely time to change their minds.
I saw Irish Pharoah’s photo - you’re right, he does look more like Mom. Victor Espinoza’s FB had a photo up of Littleprincessemma as well, and she looks like a sweetheart. Obviously I can’t say for sure, but it would be hard to believe otherwise considering her son’s personality.
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