Now that he's retired..

[ravenclaw]

I visited Ashford about 5 or 6 years ago. The guy didn’t bring any of the stallions out of their stalls (they were all eating) but we got to walk around the stalls and look at all the stallions. There was the big, gorgeous barn where Pharoah will be (I remember Giant’s Causeway was also in there) and there was another, less fancy barn. Thunder Gulch and Fu Peg and some others were in the other barn.

The guy also showed us the graveyard where Storm Bird and others are buried. He wasn’t a terribly friendly guy, but he got nicer after I gave him a tip. :lol: The people in the office were very nice.

[The_Blood_Bay_Mare]

[QUOTE=danceronice;8386294]
I thought the only one who looked a skotch pudgy was Cigar, and even he had high ribs showing so he’s probably just out of riding shape, not fat.)[/QUOTE]

Cigar died in October of last year, didn’t he? And the BC hadn’t been run in Kentucky since 2011 before this year.

[rascalpony]

Yeah, Cigar died in October '14. And he was housed at the Kentucky Horse Park. It’s definitely possible that they saw him, but not during BC time last year (or since 2012), because it was held at Santa Anita those years. Maybe they saw him in 2011?

[The_Blood_Bay_Mare]

[QUOTE=rascalpony;8386371]
Yeah, Cigar died in October '14. And he was housed at the Kentucky Horse Park. It’s definitely possible that they saw him, but not during BC time last year (or since 2012), because it was held at Santa Anita those years. Maybe they saw him in 2011?[/QUOTE]

Right, I’m just a tad confused because danceronice said friends “just did the grand tour while in KY for the BC”.

Perhaps danceronice’s friends saw Curlin? He’s a bit pudgy judging by the most recent ad I saw for him.

[Real_Rush]

As puppy-dog personality as AP is, I can just imagine him trying to cover a mare for the first time. Oh, hello! Wait, why are you sticking your butt in my face and peeing on me?! On second thought… :lol:

[Texarkana]

They’re all pudgy in the off season. It requires extreme caloric demands for stallions to cover up to 3 mares per day. If they didn’t have fat stores going into the breeding season, they’d be emaciated by the end of it.

Of course, that’s no excuse for Cigar. But IIRC, the horses at the horse park pretty much just stand around all day in stalls and paddocks. Lots of opportunity to get fluffy.

Older stallions are more prone to laminitis than non-breeding animals because of the fluctuating hormone changes associated with age. It’s the same reason older broodmares are more prone to laminitis than a non-breeding animal.

[shiningwizard255]

[QUOTE=Real Rush;8386531]
As puppy-dog personality as AP is, I can just imagine him trying to cover a mare for the first time. Oh, hello! Wait, why are you sticking your butt in my face and peeing on me?! On second thought… :lol:[/QUOTE]

I swear I’ve read that Pioneerof the Nile is supposed to be picky about the mares he breeds and not always eager to do the job. May be some truth to this if American Pharoah is like his father :lol:

[danceronice]

Duh, I meant Curlin!

[Sunlight_Star]

Look at Honor Code’s dam, granddam, great granddam…pure class…

His weanling half brother by War Front sold yesterday at Keeneland for $2,600,000.

[spotnnotfarm]

I got this off the American Pharoah’s FB page. This is a list of mares that have booked so far:

Take Charge Lady - Dam of Take Charge Indy and Will Take Charge
Awesome Maria - Millionaire and winner of the G1 Ogden Phipps
Refugee - Dam to Hoppertunity and Executiveprivilege
Untouched Talent - Dam to Bodemiester
Storm Dixie - Dam to Princess of Sylmar
A sneak peek at Pharoah’s first book!

[Lord_Helpus]

Many of those mares just sold at Keeneland. Perhaps the fact that the mares had been accepted was a plus? But the new owners are always free to use another stallion.

[Lord_Helpus]

[QUOTE=Sunlight Star;8388169]
Look at Honor Code’s dam, granddam, great granddam…pure class…

His weanling half brother by War Front sold yesterday at Keeneland for $2,600,000.[/QUOTE]. HC has just about the best breeding of any new (or current) stallion in Ky

[Lord_Helpus]

Of course, depending on the mare, I would go to HC over any other first year stallion. (And over PoTN, too)

[rascalpony]

I saw the list of some of the mares who have been booked to AP - which means obviously they could still opt elsewhere, but they did consider him.

To my very inexpert eye, they seem like really classy mares for an unproven stallion, even if he is a TC winner. However, that TC winner resume is flashy - bred with a good mare, his first foals will bring great prices at auction, which is probably what most of the resulting foals would be aimed for.

I’ve gotta say, coming from a seemingly hard-headed stallion like Empire Maker (and his dam, who was known for her crankiness as well as her producing ability), Pioneerof the Nile and AP seem like total puppy dogs. I read an article somewhere where the guys at WinStar were gushing over how sweet and huggable and level-headed Pioneerof the Nile was - like his son. I wonder where that came in? I don’t know about Empire Maker’s personality. I remember somebody saying that he could’ve won anything - but he only chose to win certain things. I’m not sure if that’s true because he never finished worse than third, it appears. I also remember Bobby Frankel saying something along the lines of him being as stubborn as his mother during the Kentucky Derby broadcast that year. Maybe I am mis-remembering though, because that personality seems to have skipped his son and grandson!

[SnicklefritzG]

[QUOTE=rascalpony;8388470]
I saw the list of some of the mares who have been booked to AP - which means obviously they could still opt elsewhere, but they did consider him.

To my very inexpert eye, they seem like really classy mares for an unproven stallion, even if he is a TC winner. However, that TC winner resume is flashy - bred with a good mare, his first foals will bring great prices at auction, which is probably what most of the resulting foals would be aimed for.

I’ve gotta say, coming from a seemingly hard-headed stallion like Empire Maker (and his dam, who was known for her crankiness as well as her producing ability), Pioneerof the Nile and AP seem like total puppy dogs. I read an article somewhere where the guys at WinStar were gushing over how sweet and huggable and level-headed Pioneerof the Nile was - like his son. I wonder where that came in? I don’t know about Empire Maker’s personality. I remember somebody saying that he could’ve won anything - but he only chose to win certain things. I’m not sure if that’s true because he never finished worse than third, it appears. I also remember Bobby Frankel saying something along the lines of him being as stubborn as his mother during the Kentucky Derby broadcast that year. Maybe I am mis-remembering though, because that personality seems to have skipped his son and grandson![/QUOTE]

I discussed this very question with a well-known breeder and got a great answer. Wouldn’t mind sharing the details via PM for those who are interested.

[Texarkana]

@rascalpony;8388470

To my very inexpert eye, they seem like really classy mares for an unproven stallion, even if he is a TC winner. However, that TC winner resume is flashy - bred with a good mare, his first foals will bring great prices at auction, which is probably what most of the resulting foals would be aimed for.

When breeding from a commercial standpoint, it’s not usual for breeders to send their top mares to an unproven stallion. Those foals are going to be worth a considerable amount of money in the marketplace. The better the mare, the more the foal is going to be worth.

Thoroughbred stallions standing to commercial breeders today (aka all the big stallions in Kentucky) almost always have their best books their first few years. That’s when the babies are going to be worth the most in the market-- in two years, everyone is going to be chomping at the bit to buy one of the first yearlings. As a stallion gets more and more foals on the ground, the offspring begin to devalue due to supply and demand… unless the offspring perform exceptionally well on the track, thus continuing the demand. If the stallion proves himself an exceptional sire of top quality horses, the demand will increase. But the majority of stallions will end up “failing,” not because they don’t get runners and winners, but because they can’t overcome the trends in consumerism. There are other factors that affect value that I’m oversimplifying, but at the end of the day, it’s all about what buyers want. Buyers spend a lot of money on “the next big thing” and proven elite sires, but not much else. Remember, they’re trying to turn a profit, too.

For American Pharoah, that demand is likely to stay high for a very long time. Being a Triple Crown winner puts him at a considerable advantage over every other stallion out there.

[Sunlight_Star]

[QUOTE=Lord Helpus;8388240]
Of course, depending on the mare, I would go to HC over any other first year stallion. (And over PoTN, too)[/QUOTE]

I absolutely agree with you. And very reasonable at $40,000.

Years ago I was at a friend’s training center and was walking down the barn isle when this not particularly tall mare caught my eye. She was class personified and she was just standing there eating hay. You couldn’t take your eyes off her. I found out she was Serena’s Tune (by Mr. P). Very sweet mare who knew exactly who she was.

Foals tend to take their dam’s demeanor…I don’t always think the mares get enough credit.

[Texarkana]

[QUOTE=Sunlight Star;8389659]

Foals tend to take their dam’s demeanor…I don’t always think the mares get enough credit.[/QUOTE]

The dam and the female family gets most of the credit when breeding race horses.

For anyone who may be curious about how horses are marketed and advertised, here is Littleprincessemma’s catalog page, which is how she or any horse being sold for racing or breeding is evaluated in a sales catalog:

http://www.equineline.com/dotFreePortfolioReport.cfm?download_pdf_list=32238258&dl_type=pdf

The sire generates interest and somewhat dictates the price range, but it’s all about the dams and what they have produced.

[EventerAJ]

[QUOTE=shiningwizard255;8386804]
I swear I’ve read that Pioneerof the Nile is supposed to be picky about the mares he breeds and not always eager to do the job. May be some truth to this if American Pharoah is like his father :lol:[/QUOTE]

Haven’t heard this before. The farm I used to manage sent a handful of mares to POTN his first season, had no trouble getting them bred.

It’s not uncommon for popular stallions start getting less interested in mares near the end of the breeding season. With full books of 200 mares, not all of whom will get in foal on one cover, it is a pretty busy springtime job. Any van driver who’s had to wait for an hour (or more) at Ashford, for instance, knows what I’m talking about…what was a smooth, quick assembly line in March may take longer to get business done in May. The stallions get tired and libido drops.

[FatDinah]

I think I know the article referred to for Pioneer. It’s not that he rejects mares, it is that he is picky about a certain routine.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/06/sports/turn-ons-peppermints-cool-breezes-turn-offs-mares-who-move-too-fast.html