Obedience - for competition and beyond.

[S1969]

Rather than continue to derail the other thread about clickers, I wanted to start a new topic about obedience.

My breed club just introduced a versatile dog title that requires a title in conformation, field, and performance (obedience or rally or agility). We have the conformation title and are working on the field training now, but a friend was looking for something to do in the winter with her dogs so we started taking private lessons with an obedience instructor. At this point we’re thinking we’d like to at least get the BN title on our dogs to make them eligible for the versatility title.

But, in working with this instructor I’m seeing some really big training holes in our field training work - so it has been great (I’ve only had 2 lessons so far, 3rd one is this afternoon). One thing I want to work more on is “whoa” training in the field. Another thing we need to consider is “fetch” training - whether force fetch or just fetch for positive reinforcement…not sure where we will go just yet.

I’m curious who else does competitive obedience (or other performance sports, since there is a lot of obedience in them as well). Have you “force fetched” your dog and what method have you used?

I have a Brittany, and they are known as being soft in comparison to other pointing breeds - e.g. GSP. I have seen that, even though my guy is not soft as Brittanys go, but we have already run into problems working with the field trainer that normally trains GSPs.

[wendy]

I would never “force fetch” train any dog, particularly one that you need to have fetching in high drive while doing hunting work. Any dog can be rapidly trained to fetch using a clicker- there’s even a book out that details all of the steps, I think it’s called clicker-training the retrieve.

I did force-fetch train one dog, with horrible results. The dog had a natural, eager fetch. The trainer, years ago, insisted that all dogs need to be force-trained for some reason I didn’t understand. A few ear pinches later the dog flat-out refused to fetch anything and had a melt-down if someone pulled out a dumbell.

I do compete in obedience and I and lots of other people have far better results getting a reliable retrieve from positive reinforcement than from force training. Dogs trained to retrieve using positive reinforcement LOVE to fetch and work hard at it.

I’d run away from an obedience instructor who is still pushing the “force training” methods for retrieving. Using a few corrections here and there on a dog who understands what you want is acceptable, but “force training” involves inflicting rather severe punishments on dogs who haven’t the slightest idea what you want. It’s pretty much guaranteed to ruin a soft dog.

[S1969]

Well, for comparison, most every hunting trainer uses FF to some degree - so it’s not just one obedience instructor suggesting it. How much force is used probably depends greatly on the trainer, but involves some sort of “compulsion” if the dog doesn’t fetch or hold the bird. So, I’m curious to hear what methods others have seen/used, and I agree that I have no particular interest in severe ear pinching or other severe forms of punishment.

The question that my friend and I have is whether it is possible to reliably teach a dog to fetch (and hold) a bird without ANY form of compulsion. Is it possible, but just time consuming? Or is there still a degree of uncertainty involved in the dog’s ability/desire/understanding to fetch under all circumstances. We know someone that did get a reliable fetch for HTs with clicker and reward…but, it’s hard to know how much of that was already instilled in the dog. I have another friend whose dog will NOT put feathers in her mouth. So, a retrieve for this dog will have to be entirely trained, and not likely to be possible with clicker and treats.

My dog has a willing retrieve on birds at this point so we have not moved past that. He has other issues to work through from some mistakes in the field with a trainer more used to working with GSPs than Brittanys. We’re getting there, but I don’t want to have to go back and start over on anything else again.

[Where_sMyWhite]

I didn’t look, but check out the Fenzi Dog Sports Academy mentioned in the other thread. http://www.fenzidogsportsacademy.com

They don’t offer classes for field dogs but they offer a number of classes in agility, rally, obedience. I’ve only take nosework classes but might be worth checking out how they teach ‘fetch’.

[S1969]

[QUOTE=Where’sMyWhite;7988239]
I didn’t look, but check out the Fenzi Dog Sports Academy mentioned in the other thread. http://www.fenzidogsportsacademy.com

They don’t offer classes for field dogs but they offer a number of classes in agility, rally, obedience. I’ve only take nosework classes but might be worth checking out how they teach ‘fetch’.[/QUOTE]

Thanks. I looked at their website but I can’t actually get any information unless I sign up for a class; which I’m not going to do since I am already in a class. There is a reference to it being “force free” so I’m curious how they instill a retrieve in a dog that doesn’t particularly want to retrieve. However, I’m mostly interested in a bird retrieve, because I think while they are probably similar to some degree, the higher level of excitement in a bird field might change the ability of the handler to manage “distraction” and “reward” for a dog.

Generally, for many willing dogs, the retrieve IS the reward in the field. But in competition it’s more structured - it can’t be set down, or left behind.

[Marshfield]

You should be able to view the full course description if you go to the Fenzi website. I am signed up for a course, but was able to view the full course description before sign ups were even open. My instructor had asked us to read the course description before sign up was open.

Having read it, the course description on retrieving doesn’t sound quite what your looking for, but there is one in the next session which might help fill in your gaps

http://www.fenzidogsportsacademy.com/index.php/courses/203

I can’t give you any advice on the field training, but do have a BN on a couple of dogs. Still haven’t been able to put the pieces together consistently enough to earn a CD. And have placed that on the back burner a bit as I focus on agility. The BN seems to be a really nice introduction to competition obedience. The toughest component to teach seems to be the sit stay where you walk around the room.

[S1969]

Yes, there is some information on retrieving in one of the classes, but I can’t tell how they are teaching the retrieve.

The course will cover:
•Identifying the best approach to each exercise for the specific type of dog
•Breaking it down into separate parts, teaching each bit in 5 minute sessions.
•Targeting behaviours for send aways vs fading lures
•Getting ring ready, fading your aids.
•Send away to nothing
•Retrieve over hurdles
•Directed retrieve
•Problem solving

It would be interesting to talk to someone that has taken this class or maybe a similar one where retrieving was done…just to discuss technique. Interestingly, the German Shorthairs we know are pretty easy to train to retrieve because they all seem to LOVE bumpers. I know very few Brittanys that like them at all, and even those that do, don’t love them. My dog will also retrieve a shot bird 2 or 3 times, but then he wants a “new” one. My field trainer claims he could throw that dead bird ALL day long and his GSPs would bring it back until it fell apart.

Also, the GSPs seem to be totally capable of managing pressure/compulsion and don’t shut down from it. Doesn’t seem to be the case for my breed. Just really interesting differences.

I am hoping we will work on the sit/stay walk around today in class. I’ve been working on it at home and trying to proof my dog with my other dogs as distractions. LOL. I feed them treats and everything and he seems to be pretty solid. But…it’s at home…so who knows. So far I think we could do all the components of the BN except we’re not great at heeling yet. Not sure how committed he would be to heel without rewards at this point so we have to work on it. My friend and I are thinking of entering for BN at our show in Maine this June.

[S1969]

Yes, there is some information on retrieving in one of the classes, but I can’t tell how they are teaching the retrieve.

The course will cover:
•Identifying the best approach to each exercise for the specific type of dog
•Breaking it down into separate parts, teaching each bit in 5 minute sessions.
•Targeting behaviours for send aways vs fading lures
•Getting ring ready, fading your aids.
•Send away to nothing
•Retrieve over hurdles
•Directed retrieve
•Problem solving

It would be interesting to talk to someone that has taken this class or maybe a similar one where retrieving was done…just to discuss technique. Interestingly, the German Shorthairs we know are pretty easy to train to retrieve because they all seem to LOVE bumpers. I know very few Brittanys that like them at all, and even those that do, don’t love them. My dog will also retrieve a shot bird 2 or 3 times, but then he wants a “new” one. My field trainer claims he could throw that dead bird ALL day long and his GSPs would bring it back until it fell apart.

Also, the GSPs seem to be totally capable of managing pressure/compulsion and don’t shut down from it. Doesn’t seem to be the case for my breed. Just really interesting differences.

I am hoping we will work on the sit/stay walk around today in class. I’ve been working on it at home and trying to proof my dog with my other dogs as distractions. LOL. I feed them treats and everything and he seems to be pretty solid. But…it’s at home…so who knows. So far I think we could do all the components of the BN except we’re not great at heeling yet. Not sure how committed he would be to heel without rewards at this point so we have to work on it. My friend and I are thinking of entering for BN at our show in Maine this June.

[BEARCAT]

@S1969;7988179

I have another friend whose dog will NOT put feathers in her mouth. So, a retrieve for this dog will have to be entirely trained, and not likely to be possible with clicker and treats.

I am quite puzzled by this statement as I see the opposite. To me , that dog would be a PERFECT candidate for clicker training done right.

[Marshfield]

My youngest is the first one I’ve used this approach with, but there’s a method called “choose to heel” which has worked well. A friend with English Cockers (hers are very soft dogs) introduced me to it. I can explain in greater detail, if desired.

The other breed in our household are GSP’s. You are correct–so completely different than the Brittanies I know. They do like bumpers. Can “play” retrieve until you’re exhausted. Able to withstand pressure.

If you run in to issues with the sit/stay walk around–just walking behind him on leash or stepping side to side behind him will likely help address that. What I see as the point most dogs break on this exercise is when they can no longer keep turning their head one way to track you and have to then turn their head back the other way to follow you.

[S1969]

[QUOTE=BEARCAT;7988508]
I am quite puzzled by this statement as I see the opposite. To me , that dog would be a PERFECT candidate for clicker training done right.[/QUOTE]

Well, let me rephrase it - owner does a LOT of competitive obedience and agility, so I think if it had been that easy, it would be done already. The dog really does not WANT to do it. And she will retrieve other things, just not a bird. So…where do you go from there? The positive reinforcement is NOT enough to make the dog want to pick up/retrieve a bird.

So…how to explain to a dog that they must do it because they know the command, understand the command, but don’t want to comply? Other field trainers “force fetch”…

[Where_sMyWhite]

S1969, maybe shoot the instructor email and ask how they teach and if it would be suitable for your field work.

[BEARCAT]

Can you explain what “force fetch” is? I’m not familiar with this.

[S1969]

[QUOTE=Where’sMyWhite;7988538]
S1969, maybe shoot the instructor email and ask how they teach and if it would be suitable for your field work.[/QUOTE]

Well, at the moment I’m simply curious; I’m sure if I were the instructor I would say “yes! of course it will work” but I’m not sure I would believe it unless I saw it done on field dogs. I have an obedience class this afternoon although not sure we’ll get to talk about things like force fetch…but maybe.

I guess the question applies to all kinds of obedience/training issues – if the dog is not interested in the reward being offered for doing the task, what is the next step for you and your dog? (Assuming, of course, that the dog understands the command.)

As I mentioned earlier, a lot of hunting dog trainers use a lot of methods of compulsion - an e-collar to reinforce whoa, for example, or an ear pinch to teach fetch. My dog isn’t soft for his breed, and I’m not a huge baby, so it doesn’t bother me to put “pressure” on him (e.g. I do use an e-collar in the field and will use it if he ignores a command to recall). But I also don’t want to be stupid and “force” him to do something he would do otherwise if I were more observant, or more patient, etc.

So…just looking for examples of finding the right balance.

[S1969]

[QUOTE=BEARCAT;7988559]
Can you explain what “force fetch” is? I’m not familiar with this.[/QUOTE]

It’s training a dog to fetch on command, and it’s not usually for a positive reinforcement, because many trainers don’t think it’s strong enough to ensure the dog will fetch in competition. “Fetch” as the command means the entire act of sending the dog to the bird, retrieving it and NOT putting it down until commanded. And the dog faces consequences if it doesn’t comply.

The “ear pinch” is done in a variety of ways but I’ve seen it being used if the dog drops the bird/bumper, the trainer pinches the ear until the dog picks it back up and/or opens its mouth to complain and the trainer puts the bumper in its mouth. So, eventually the dog (should) learn that you never put the bird down.

Different trainers teach it different ways - and obviously if you have a dog that wants to retrieve the bird, you only have to worry about it putting it down, not that it won’t go get it.

ETA: I didn’t watch all of this - but as you see it’s video #12 so the dog has already been taught to fetch, and this is where they show how to put pressure on him if he doesn’t do it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IL-g1HyIoI

The problem (obviously) is that if your dog starts to fear the ear pinch, it might lose the interest in retrieving, which is really bad. So I haven’t started to work on this with my dog, because he loves to retrieve the bird. But…he does sometimes put it down.

[Marshfield]

@S1969;7988566

I guess the question applies to all kinds of obedience/training issues – if the dog is not interested in the reward being offered for doing the task, what is the next step for you and your dog? (Assuming, of course, that the dog understands the command.)

I promise I am not being facetious when I tell you the next step is figuring out what your dog does want to work for. This actually came up in the private lesson I had last week–the importance of knowing your own dog’s hierarchy of reward. It was a two year process, but my dog who was flat out terrified of the teeter is now competing on the teeter. There were a lot of baby steps, but part of the process was determining that for liverwurst, Gale could try to be brave. Liverwurst is the ultimate high value treat, so for learning new or difficult things I crack out the liverwurst. Regular work only merits Wondernuggets. For my trainer’s Border Collies a jackpot of meatballs is the ultimate prize. For other dogs I know, tug is the ultimate reward.

It may not apply for a dog who is doing field work, but with each successive agility dog I have invested more time early on in teaching tug and other game/play activities

[BEARCAT]

Thank you for explaining and sharing the video (which made me want to puke by the way and I only made it about 4 minutes in.)

I guess I don’t like to train through fear or pain when I know there is a better way.
I agree with the above poster on finding what does constitute a high reward for the the dog. Might be a piece of steak, a game of tug, etc.

I am currently helping a lady with a show dog who has developed an aversion to the table and will even growl at judges. Now this is a dog that has many titles and has been on the table countless times, but whatever happened it now has a negative association with it. We are literally starting from scratch and making it the dog’s idea to get on a piece of plywood on the floor, then the folded table on the floor, etc. The dog is getting the hang of it and offering the behavior and enjoying it. A turnaround from 2 weeks ago when it was literally shaking non-stop when being placed on the table.

It can be done but maybe the owner is not the best to be working at this on their own - too much baggage and “this dog should really know this already” mentality.

[S1969]

[QUOTE=BEARCAT;7988635]
Thank you for explaining and sharing the video (which made me want to puke by the way and I only made it about 4 minutes in.)

I guess I don’t like to train through fear or pain when I know there is a better way. I agree with the above poster on finding what does constitute a high reward for the the dog. Might be a piece of steak, a game of tug, etc. [/QUOTE]

I will admit I have not watched the whole thing so maybe it gets worse than I would expect. But otherwise it seemed pretty typical at the beginning. I’ll watch the whole thing later or tomorrow…

I’m not sure food is a motivator for a dog to retrieve a bird and never consider putting it down. Just like when my dog is off lead and hunting, food is not a motivator for him to come back to me when I call. He knows the command, but the highest reward out there is the hunting. So, he wears an e-collar and I use it if he ignores me. I don’t fry him, but I think there are trainers that would suggest I should - because then he won’t ignore me in the future. Hmm.

I guess it’s the same issue with retrieving – what makes your dog bring the bird back to the handler (without dropping) instead of taking it to a secluded place and eating it. Some dogs will do that if you let them…hard to train them not to for a “high value” treat…that bird is pretty high value.

[RaeHughes]

I do competitive obedience with my older BC - still working up the NZ title string but “fetching” is a key part of it. Okay, we know it as a “retrieve” - either of an object or a scent cloth. At the moment, we are working on the “objects” required for the 2nd level of our ob titles - which can be anything!

My BC has very strong retrieve drives which does make some parts easier to teach … and others not so easy.

You need to (1) find out what your dog’s most bestest reinforcement is (my girl’s is to play with a tennis ball …) and (2) break down the retrieve into bits and only rarely train the whole retrieve in one go - like 1/2 x a week.

EG - for a dumbbell retrieve, I do the following:

1. train the hold - yes, I get my girl to hold the dumbbell correctly and only reward when she is holding it with a closed mouth and not gnawing on it. (She still gets so excited when it is retrieve time and she has been doing this for >4 years :D)
2. train the wait - just get her into a close heel position and tell her to wait while I throw the dumbbell out. Even better, is when I can stop her and throw the DB past her and have her wait to be released.
3. train the drive out to pick up the DB (or other object)
4. train the pick up - usually with a wait now but I started by walking her and dropping the DB and getting her to pick it up.
5. bringing the DB back
6. the “present” - sitting right in front and holding the db nicely for me to take, and, FINALLY,
7. the return to close-heel position and the site

With field work, you would probably want to teach a leave it - perhaps start with a fake bird - and get them to retrieve it. You can do this - heck, we trained a “developmentally challenged” dog with “anxiety issues” to retrieve live ducks to us without injurying them (instead of killing them!) just using praise and play. Now, to work on his not carrying chickens around … at all

(When I say “developmentally challenged” - he was starved as a young dog and it really has impacted on his mental development. He is so so so excited when he gets told “you are SOOO clever” - which is when he finally get something that the other 3 learned in about 5 minutes. He has had to be trained on the difference between killing hares/rabbits - encouraged - and not killing ducks/chickens. Mainly 'cause he cannot distinguish between different types of fowls.)

[BEARCAT]

But then, one could argue that he does not know the command, no?
The aim of clicker training should be to achieve learned behaviors that are reliable without food, but I think that last step is often missed.

(Not trying to pick on you, I find this discussion very interesting. As for what is “typical” training for retrievers, I know nothing about that world and didn’t know they tied the dogs up to where they can’t move and hurt them enough to make them yelp in pain.Truly I had no idea, I thought they mostly used the dog’s natural instinct.)