[QUOTE=S1969;7990045]
Well, also, how someone does “force fetch” depends a lot on the trainer too.
I don’t think it’s fair to use any pressure until the dog fully understands the command, so I don’t really support the idea of the ear pinch while training retrieve (as the video seemed to demonstrate).
I had to go back and regain “happy in the field looking for birds” because my field trainer yelled at my dog when he broke his “whoa.” (Well, he yelled “whoa” at him.) But, I think my dog was confused, and then thought he was in trouble…so he started “blinking” birds (deliberately ignoring them) because he didn’t want to get in trouble. So…even a little bit of pressure can be bad if they aren’t ready.
Some trainers are brutal in their methods - not just force fetch, but other things like teaching a dog to “whoa” by leaving it standing on a wobbly barrel for a long time (any time they move they lose their balance so they learn to be still). Some keep dogs in the kennel and their only reward in life is to hunt. No thanks. You definitely need to ask around.
If your dog likes to hunt, and isn’t averse to feathers, you can do a lot in the field without “force fetch” because most dogs do like to retrieve. Pointing dog Junior Hunt tests don’t even shoot, so no retrieve possible. Not sure about Springers, but I would assume the JH is the same for them. It’s about finding birds, and pointing (or whatever Springers do.) It’s only as they move up that a retrieve is necessary. Pointing dog Field Trials don’t shoot either - just a starters pistol and demonstrating steadiness to the shot. (Well, I’ve been told that sometimes the ones that place have some sort of retrieve test at the end of the Trial but that’s not very common. I’m not sure about Springer Field Trials though.)
I wouldn’t avoid field work if you’re interested. A retrieve isn’t used in competition at the entry levels, and by the time you need it you’ll know if you (and your dog) enjoy the sport and know people involved.[/QUOTE]
S1969, I know nothing about training field dogs, but as I mentioned, I have managed to train my Irish Wolfhound to do the Obedience excercise of retrieving a dumbbell using only positive reinforcement, and she has absolutely no natural retrieve.
She earned her Beginner Novice title, then her Companion Dog title with two High in Trials (full disclosure, these were at IW Specialities, so we were not giving the Border Collies any sort of competition!)
She sounds similar to your dog in that she can get her feelings hurt pretty easily. It sounds as if your dog was OK with the physical correction of the ecollar which is impersonal, but the trainer yelling at him was very “personal” and did bother him, at least it caused him to temporarily inhibit his behavior in a way that was undesirable.
The folks I train with have said not to repeat a command more sternly or louder if it is not obeyed, for those reasons (it is “personal” and can result in a loss of motivation), but also because you always want to give the command the same way, same tone of voice, etc. They may use an aversive, but if it is verbal, they are more likely to say “eh” than repeat the command. I cannot do even that with Tori, it would totally bum her out. The only “aversive” I’ve ever used with her, was when she started walking in on the recall. I used a long line, and gave her the tiniest bit of pressure (she is trained on a flat buckle collar). Now she flies back to me.
With her, I consider retrieving a personal favor to me, so have not done any aversives. Maybe it is different with a sporting dog where it is part of their “job”. So far, she has not ever refused to retrieve, but if she did, I would probably “help make her right” by going out with her.
Diane Baumen is a pretty tough cookie, I have been to her seminar and read her book, and I am pretty much afraid of her! ; )
Someone who does use some compulsion for some dogs in a little less “forceful” way is Terri Arnold, she has written some good books.
Maybe your dog will never fail to retrieve and you won’t have to use a correction. I know Tori would be totally grossed out by a bird with feathers, I would have to work pretty hard to convince her that that was a good idea!
She has dropped the dumbell a time or two, now that I think of it, by running into me so fast she has smashed it into me, but she always snatches it back up immediately with no additional command, and I haven’t corrected her, and it hasn’t become a habit.
Will your dog ever have to do a water retrieve? That would definitely be a deal-breaker for Tori! I mean, it would certainly be a challenge for us!!
That’s a bummer, because I think some of the other areas are far easier to get 1 point toward this title (e.g. 5 show points = 1 point in the conformation area…not very hard unless your dog is oversized. It only needs to beat 1 other dog in my region to get 1 point; or a JH or NAVHDA NA for field, which doesn’t require much training, just instinct). These titles qualify for 1 point in “performance” area: CD, NA, NAJ, RN, NAP, NJP, TD, NF