Obedience - for competition and beyond.

[Bicoastal]

Excellent point!

[QUOTE=S1969;7992368]
I also have a theory that in a high adrenaline situation (bird field, or especially the training field with lots of birds, dogs and gunshots) everything is amplified. I felt his response was out of character for him but I think he was generally overwhelmed with stimuli it was too much for him to process so he shut down.

So now I am being really careful. I am not worried about him being corrected (in fact, I consider him to be really quite hard-headed) but I want to be sure that if I ask him to do something in a high adrenaline situation that he is ready. [/QUOTE]

I don’t think many trainers think of this until after they experience the problem repeatedly. I know I never have.

I’ve learned you need to intentionally train your dog in different mental/energy states because if you only practice sit at a 4, he won’t know how to sit at a 1 or a 9. He isn’t being disobedient, his brain doesn’t know how to respond in that different level.

I’ve seen exceptional trainers intentionally fire up drivey dogs and bring em down and FIRE EM UP and bring em down to 1) teach the dog to so and 2) practice in those different states. It is really neat to see.

[Houndhill]

[QUOTE=Bicoastal;7992606]
I don’t think many trainers think of this until after they experience the problem repeatedly. I know I never have.

I’ve learned you need to intentionally train your dog in different mental/energy states because if you only practice sit at a 4, he won’t know how to sit at a 1 or a 9. He isn’t being disobedient, his brain doesn’t know how to respond in that different level.

I’ve seen exceptional trainers intentionally fire up drivey dogs and bring em down and FIRE EM UP and bring em down to 1) teach the dog to so and 2) practice in those different states. It is really neat to see.[/QUOTE]

That is a very good point! The top trainers always make a point of revving a dog up, and calming him down.

I am all about creating energy in the ring with a wolfhound. They are so laid back, it can be difficult to create enough energy to get them through a routine in the obedience ring.

But out coursing large game, a whole different story! Some I can call off deer, some I cannot, it seems independent of amount of obedience training. We mostly rely upon secure fencing. I have had some I could walk off lead in unfamiliar unfenced areas and they were reliable. Others, not so much. I always know who I can trust. The males are often less keen hunters than the bitches.

[S1969]

[QUOTE=Houndhill;7992896]
But out coursing large game, a whole different story! Some I can call off deer, some I cannot, it seems independent of amount of obedience training. We mostly rely upon secure fencing. I have had some I could walk off lead in unfamiliar unfenced areas and they were reliable. Others, not so much. I always know who I can trust. The males are often less keen hunters than the bitches.[/QUOTE]

The interesting thing about this quote is that is how most of my hunting dog friends feel about their dogs (of course, we WANT to encourage this practice, whereas maybe you don’t). The keenness is a good thing. Dogs that DON’T want to hunt are very difficult to train. But this is where I feel that “regular obedience” doesn’t work. And, this is why my guys wear e-collars in the field, so that I have something other than the promise of a treat and some praise to ensure that they will listen to me…or the idea that they will come back because they know the command and therefore they will just do it because they are obedient.

It often gets suggested that dogs that won’t recall aren’t obedient, but I see these as two separate things – the desire to hunt is immense, even in dogs that aren’t specifically from hunting only lines. It’s very difficult to compete with that reward. The question “what will motivate your dog?” The answer - “hunting”. It’s like a circular argument.

[Houndhill]

[QUOTE=S1969;7993458]
The interesting thing about this quote is that is how most of my hunting dog friends feel about their dogs (of course, we WANT to encourage this practice, whereas maybe you don’t). The keenness is a good thing. Dogs that DON’T want to hunt are very difficult to train. But this is where I feel that “regular obedience” doesn’t work. And, this is why my guys wear e-collars in the field, so that I have something other than the promise of a treat and some praise to ensure that they will listen to me…or the idea that they will come back because they know the command and therefore they will just do it because they are obedient.

It often gets suggested that dogs that won’t recall aren’t obedient, but I see these as two separate things – the desire to hunt is immense, even in dogs that aren’t specifically from hunting only lines. It’s very difficult to compete with that reward. The question “what will motivate your dog?” The answer - “hunting”. It’s like a circular argument. :)[/QUOTE]

I think you are right!

[Bicoastal]

What an intelligent convo and thoughtful posts. I love this topic: the theory and practice of behavior and competition training.

[QUOTE=S1969;7993458]
But this is where I feel that “regular obedience” doesn’t work. And, this is why my guys wear e-collars in the field, so that I have something other than the promise of a treat and some praise to ensure that they will listen to me…or the idea that they will come back because they know the command and therefore they will just do it because they are obedient.[/QUOTE]

In general, the compulsion vs clicker groups have this argument over and over. Compulsion asks Clicker “and what happens when you don’t have a cookie?” Well, the Clicker should ask the Compulsion “and what happens when you don’t have a remote?” The answer to both is the dog has been systematically trained and gradually proofed to do XYZ without bribes or threats.

I know you’re not arguing this. It is a big issue in the OB world so I’m adding to the thread.

@S1969;7993458

It’s very difficult to compete with that reward. The question “what will motivate your dog?” The answer - “hunting”. It’s like a circular argument.

I know what my favorite trainer would say! Got a sniffy dog? Ask for a behavior and reward with “go sniff.” The motivation is hunting? The reward is permission to hunt! Controlling reinforcement could be tricky…:winkgrin:

[S1969]

[QUOTE=Bicoastal;7993726]
What an intelligent convo and thoughtful posts. I love this topic: the theory and practice of behavior and competition training.

In general, the compulsion vs clicker groups have this argument over and over. Compulsion asks Clicker “and what happens when you don’t have a cookie?” Well, the Clicker should ask the Compulsion “and what happens when you don’t have a remote?” The answer to both is the dog has been systematically trained and gradually proofed to do XYZ without bribes or threats.

I know you’re not arguing this. It is a big issue in the OB world so I’m adding to the thread.

I know what my favorite trainer would say! Got a sniffy dog? Ask for a behavior and reward with “go sniff.” The motivation is hunting? The reward is permission to hunt! Controlling reinforcement could be tricky…:winkgrin:[/QUOTE]

Yes, I am sort of arguing this, but in a good way. My dogs are important to me, and I want to do the best I can - and don’t want to traumatize them. I’ve already seen how easy it is to do the wrong thing, and how you can lose a lot of time backtracking. (And, my trainer is the nicest guy, but he has a big voice. He’s used to training GSPs, which, apparently, are incapable of “taking things personally.”)

You can’t use an e-collar in competition, just for training, so in theory you are just as helpless if the dog ignores your command compared to a reward based command. I guess the understanding has to come in the training for both methods.

It is true that allowing the dog to hunt is the best reward - in fact a frequent tactic to get a dog to return to the handler if they don’t bring back a bird is to fire another shot…so they can go find the next one. It gets tricky, though. You have to practice “fails” - e.g. handler misses the bird, or the bird isn’t shot at because it’s unsafe. Otherwise the dogs get mad when they can’t get retrieve.

My Diane Bauman book arrived today so I browsed through the section on compulsive retrieve. In comparison to what I’ve seen (and the retriever video) it seems pretty gentle. The use of an ear pinch is more like an annoying tapping with a dressage whip while riding versus inflicting pain. It’s interesting that people are generally supportive of riding with “compulsive methods” versus rewards but it’s so controversial in dogs.

[Houndhill]

It is a little different with the IW and the retrieve, I would only expect her to ever do it in the relatively controlled environment of the obedience ring, where “it’s all tricks”, so I am fine with all, or almost all, positive. I am pretty sure she would not do well with the Diane Baumen or any ear pinch methods, and I have seen really good trainers do it on dogs in a non-traumatic way- but not on a wolfhound. They are really different.

You might want to just look at the Terri Arnold for comparison. Also do have a look at the Sue Ailsby, she has dogs retriving spoons and all manner of things! I do have Diane Bauman’s book, but don’t use it, and as I say, I did see her work with dogs and just thought her methods were not so much for us.

As far as using what the dog really likes to do as a reward, well as has been very astutely observed, when your dog’s favorite thing is to bring down large game, it is a little hard to control those reinforcers! It ruins my whole day when they bring down a deer!

They are incredibly prey-specific to large animals. Mine don’t get into lure-coursing, even when I have tried conditioning them to the game as puppies, with plastic bags tied to lunge whips etc. I even had my friend the greyhound breeder over to work with puppies. They just were not really into it, and if they ever hunt live game, I could never get them interested in lure coursing except as spectators. They loved watching the other dogs run, and loved the tailgating picnic aspect, but when they began wanting their own lawn chairs and chaise lounges set up, it became a bit much.