Official Way to Bitch about Ride Times?

[Pennywell_Bay]

[QUOTE=AltersAreUs;8742046]
Oh yeah, I contacted the first show’s secretary within minutes of the schedule going out, saying “Is there anyway you can rearrange the classes so there is 3 hours or less between my two rides? Because otherwise I’ll have to scratch given the forecast & lack of shade available.” Her response was basically “So you’re scratching from class X, then. Got it!”[/QUOTE]

As a competitor, I’d be annoyed at the very long wait in your situation (I’m a H/J transplant so they don’t generally bother me).

Let me preface by saying- they can’t accommodate everything and theirs is a thankless job at times. However, I have been denied in a similar situation and the response was much more “gentle”. Not that I need to be handled, but was very customer service oriented and I entered for the next show and she accommodated me. They will be getting my business again.

[rothmpp]

[QUOTE=yaya;8742068]
Was just curious about the contacting beforehand.

Another thing I wonder is how many of those show secretaries actually currently compete? I try to look at running my shows from the competitors’ view, as I do currently compete as well (which means instead of competing at the shows 20 minutes from my house, I have to travel 3-8 hours to compete since I run the local shows!). I actually had an argument with a show manager who wanted to make the judges happier than the actual competitors, and I told her if she pissed off her competitors, there would be no one to judge, and if I couldn’t do it my way, she could find another secretary! (I ran her shows for years after that until she quit having shows.)

Now that I think about it, now I’m going to have to go 5-8 hours away, since the 3-hour away show screwed my trainer royally at the last two shows and were nasty to her, and I wasn’t thrilled with them either last time I went there.[/QUOTE]

I have often said that I think that show managers and secretaries should be required to compete so that they understand better what their competitors go through. One show manager I worked for hasn’t even thrown a leg over a horse in 20 years, let alone competed.

[Sandy_M]

[QUOTE=Beentheredonethat;8741810]
Will I see you there Sunday, Sandy? :)[/QUOTE]

Sadly, no. I am in month 10 of rehabbing a hind suspensory injury. :0( We’ve been doing limited trotting since the beginning of May. Next vet check probably a month or more away.

[AltersAreUs]

[QUOTE=Rackonteur;8741367]

And why stand a horse IN a trailer for hours? Why not tie him TO the trailer, with hay and water and what breeze there is? Or hand-graze him in the shade?

I don’t know anyone who leaves their horse IN the trailer at a show.[/QUOTE]

Because the parking for the one show is just a great big black top covered parking lot. It is actually cooler to have your horse in the trailer rather than tied beside it, assuming there is even room. Likewise, there is no real grazing to be had. Place has nice rings and good footing even when it’s pissing rain but the trailer parking leaves a LOT to be desired.

[AltersAreUs]

Looking over this latest show, I expect there are going to be a lot of scratches and annoyed competitors. This isn’t a “one or two riders/classes get screwed” problem. Only thing I can come up with is that the secretary is unaware of the logistics of this venue and didn’t catch the lack of stabling.

T-2 & T- 3 are in the same ring & have 6 hours between the first ride for each. There are bunch of riders doing both but rather than put the overlap riders last in the earlier class and first in the later, they’re just kind’a up front in both classes.

1-2 & 1-3 have a bunch of riders with 5 & 6 hours wait between the two classes. And since these are both large classes in different rings, they actually overlap. Those times could be as small as 2 minutes but it looks like all the overlap riders have multi-hour waits.

1st 3 & 2nd 1 have 6 hours between the first ride of each but the overlap riders are just spread out everywhere, resulting in a number of them with 8 hour waits.

3-3 & 4-1 has another set of riders are getting a 6 hour wait between between.

Like you’d expect, the Training & First level classes are the really large classes, especially the 3rd test. It looks like they tried to put all the really large qualifying classes as the last class of the day in each ring and decided not to split the classes to make scheduling easier.

[MysticOakRanch]

[QUOTE=rothmpp;8742078]
I have often said that I think that show managers and secretaries should be required to compete so that they understand better what their competitors go through. One show manager I worked for hasn’t even thrown a leg over a horse in 20 years, let alone competed.[/QUOTE]

I also think competitors should try to schedule a multi-ring show. You’ve got trainers who are riding 4 different horses, and have to make sure they have at least an hour between each horse (and of course, some of those horses are doing 2 levels, and some of them are at the same level), then you have people who are showing a half day and volunteering a half day, so you have to work around that. Then there are the big name trainers who make requests so they can school their clients AND show horses, and some people are riding Training 2 and 3, some are riding Training 3 and First 1, some are riding Training 3 and First 3, it is really much harder then it sounds. Then you have one “r” judge who can only judge through 2nd level, or an “R” who can only judge through 4th. With a single ring, it is relatively easy (although I’ve had those ride times really screwed up several times too - riding First 3 and 2nd 1, and had one ride at 10:30 and one ride at 4:30). Oh, and when it is hot, a lot of shows try to schedule FEI rides mid-morning when it is cooler, so there is THAT too…But with multiple rings, it is an incredible exercise in complexity.

I’ll admit, I HATE getting that schedule where I"ve got a 4 or 6 hour break. And I’ve had it happen many times. And yes, it gets crazy hot here too (90s to 110 in the summer). So I have also scratched many rides for the same reason. Sometimes I’ll write a note - just put me in whichever DAY and whichever X level rides that will be scheduled close together. And have found that strategy works well with some show managers.

[Magicboy]

I’ve actually avoided some shows because I know the secretary schedules lead line classes at 7 am and FEI classes after 4…

Sometimes horse shows are just nuts.

[Sandy_M]

@MysticOakRanch;8742438

I also think competitors should try to schedule a multi-ring show. You’ve got trainers who are riding 4 different horses, and have to make sure they have at least an hour between each horse (and of course, some of those horses are doing 2 levels, and some of them are at the same level), then you have people who are showing a half day and volunteering a half day, so you have to work around that. Then there are the big name trainers who make requests so they can school their clients AND show horses, and some people are riding Training 2 and 3, some are riding Training 3 and First 1, some are riding Training 3 and First 3, it is really much harder then it sounds. Then you have one “r” judge who can only judge through 2nd level, or an “R” who can only judge through 4th. With a single ring, it is relatively easy (although I’ve had those ride times really screwed up several times too - riding First 3 and 2nd 1, and had one ride at 10:30 and one ride at 4:30). Oh, and when it is hot, a lot of shows try to schedule FEI rides mid-morning when it is cooler, so there is THAT too…But with multiple rings, it is an incredible exercise in complexity.

When you’re talking about something like our California Dressage Society Annual Show, with multiple rings and all sorts of Championships, etc., I absolutely understand what you are saying. However, I most often run into this at local (but 3*** shows) that have one, or at most, two rings going and could, if they wished, accommodate “special needs” people or even just NOT inconvenience multiple people by spacing rides so far apart. I have helped organize and schedule dressage shows and it CAN be done.

OTOH, a couple of years ago, at our Regional Adult Amateur Championships, I entered a 1st level class as a warmup, and then the Championship class for which I had qualified. I ended up having to ride my Championship class BEFORE my warmup - and 8 hours apart. And you know why? Because the organizers presumption was that you would enter THURSDAY and/or FRIDAY classes in preparation for the SATURDAY championships. Uh. NO. I have to work for a living, nor did I have the money for more than two classes, and had to trailer in the day of the championship class. But there DOES seem to be this presumption that everyone just takes time off (or doesn’t have to work) and will spend a week at a show in order to ride one or two classes. Shrug

[Bogey2]

Having scheduled shows myself…I can tell you it’s a PIA.
The size of the classes, people doing two different levels …(one may do first and second another training and first…it’s a thankless job . I will just scratch a test or try to pick up a scratch in another test. YOU have to be flexible too!

[Bogey2]

so we need to know you work for a living too? lol Most of us do…

[QUOTE=Sandy M;8742769]
When you’re talking about something like our California Dressage Society Annual Show, with multiple rings and all sorts of Championships, etc., I absolutely understand what you are saying. However, I most often run into this at local (but 3*** shows) that have one, or at most, two rings going and could, if they wished, accommodate “special needs” people or even just NOT inconvenience multiple people by spacing rides so far apart. I have helped organize and schedule dressage shows and it CAN be done.

OTOH, a couple of years ago, at our Regional Adult Amateur Championships, I entered a 1st level class as a warmup, and then the Championship class for which I had qualified. I ended up having to ride my Championship class BEFORE my warmup - and 8 hours apart. And you know why? Because the organizers presumption was that you would enter THURSDAY and/or FRIDAY classes in preparation for the SATURDAY championships. Uh. NO. I have to work for a living, nor did I have the money for more than two classes, and had to trailer in the day of the championship class. But there DOES seem to be this presumption that everyone just takes time off (or doesn’t have to work) and will spend a week at a show in order to ride one or two classes. Shrug[/QUOTE]

[Sandy_M]

Maybe you need to know that I am 71 and still working full time so that I can have a horse. Social Security and a modest IRA won’t support a horse habit in the SF Bay Area. ;0)

[ArabDiva]

[QUOTE=rothmpp;8742078]
I have often said that I think that show managers and secretaries should be required to compete so that they understand better what their competitors go through. One show manager I worked for hasn’t even thrown a leg over a horse in 20 years, let alone competed.[/QUOTE]

If they all competed, then who would be left to manage the shows??

I am VERY THANKFUL for the people who make shows possible. I can’t imagine it’s a terribly lucrative endeavor, and it’s fairly thankless at times too. I think it’s great that people who may not be able to ride or may not want to ride for whatever reason still find ways to stay involved with horses and support our sport.

I recognize that some shows are managed better than others.
Some show staff may truly be lazy with the scheduling – but I think in most cases it’s probably a “can’t please everyone” issue, maybe compounded a bit with being jaded from too many crazy requests over the years.

[Draftmare]

I just want to say that I sympathize with your pain. I haven’t had too much of an issue this year, but last year I had a couple shows that I went to where an entire division ran between my first test and my next test, leaving me with close to a 4 hour wait. In the rain and driving wind. It was not fun. I am not sure what type of scheduling would mean that it would be okay to do that. To me I think it would be easier on the office and on the judges if everybody in a division went one right after another, instead of breaking things up like that.

[rothmpp]

[QUOTE=ArabDiva;8743272]
If they all competed, then who would be left to manage the shows??

I am VERY THANKFUL for the people who make shows possible. I can’t imagine it’s a terribly lucrative endeavor, and it’s fairly thankless at times too. I think it’s great that people who may not be able to ride or may not want to ride for whatever reason still find ways to stay involved with horses and support our sport.

I recognize that some shows are managed better than others.
Some show staff may truly be lazy with the scheduling – but I think in most cases it’s probably a “can’t please everyone” issue, maybe compounded a bit with being jaded from too many crazy requests over the years.[/QUOTE]

You’re missing my point. I have worked with several show managers and secretaries that are so removed from what it was like to be on the other side of the desk that they end up with competitors that feel like the management has no sympathy for the riders.

I’m not saying that they have to be active competitors showing regularly. I’m saying that the dressage show industry might fair better if those managers had to spend some time on the other side of the desk occasionally.

[jdobbs64]

Our GMO just lost a fantastic scheduler who knew all the usual suspects, so she knew that rider A was with Barn X and Trainer Z, or the solo rider who has a 3 hr drive, etc- so although ours are just schooling shows, she would work her butt off to ensure the day flowed smoothly and rides were spaced legally and as reasonably as could be done. Her schedules are works of art.

She’s been replaced by a computer program with no such sense, and the schedule has suffered terribly. Those who elected to go that route were entirely deaf to her very vocal concerns; sometimes you try and try and lose out anyway and the club has to learn from its mistakes.

[jdobbs64]

To me I think it would be easier on the office and on the judges if everybody in a division went one right after another, instead of breaking things up like that.

Unless a trainer is riding several horses in that same division, in which case, it’s not permissible to do what you’re asking for. And that happens a lot.

[Kate_Wooten]

Nope. Maybe the return on investment isn’t sufficient to allow a little more investment, but the computing power and search algorithms are absolutely at a point where Also Minimizing long wait times is perfectly feasible. Actually, for a 60 rider show, I find it perfectly feasible to make a significant improvement manually.

[QUOTE=rothmpp;8740978]
And I am going to beg to differ. I am a long time show secretary. Until you try to work these schedules out, you have no idea how hard it is to get everything to work.

Part of it is the software that many shows use to schedule these days. The software is usually programmed to identify conflicts that are too close together, but adding code to not put rides too far apart likely would make it nearly impossible to electronically schedule a show of any size.

For every rider that wants ride times no more than 30 minutes apart there is a rider that needs 6 hours between to recover. Someone is always going to be unhappy with their ride times. At every show. Without fail. I went for a whole season where I was scheduled in the last hour of the last day of a three day show every.single.show.

Quite a bit of it depends on the the size of the show as well. How many riders with multiple horses? How many rides altogether? How many rings? There is a magic number where it is easiest to schedule. Anything over and anything under makes it exponentially harder.

Sometimes it happens that you end up with the first class of the day and the last class of the day. It appears that OP has the bad luck to have this happen twice in the same year. And OP - it sounds to me like part of your complaint is not just the schedule but the lack of reasonable accommodations for the horses at the facility. No stabling available and no shade available? I’d be looking for a different facility to show at.[/QUOTE]

[AltersAreUs]

[QUOTE=jdobbs64;8743829]
Our GMO just lost a fantastic scheduler who knew all the usual suspects, so she knew that rider A was with Barn X and Trainer Z, or the solo rider who has a 3 hr drive, etc- so although ours are just schooling shows, she would work her butt off to ensure the day flowed smoothly and rides were spaced legally and as reasonably as could be done. Her schedules are works of art.

She’s been replaced by a computer program with no such sense, and the schedule has suffered terribly. Those who elected to go that route were entirely deaf to her very vocal concerns; sometimes you try and try and lose out anyway and the club has to learn from its mistakes.[/QUOTE]

Is the scheduling software really that bad? I would have thought that a) it would allow things like “average of an hour wait time” as part of the constraints going in and b) manually setting certain riders/classes to general time zones, like FEI classes should be in the morning, freestyles over lunch sort of thing. I haven’t used any of them but seriously, in the grand scheme of things, scheduling a dressage show is not a hard mathematical problem. There aren’t THAT many constraints or data points from a computers’ point of view.

[jdobbs64]

[QUOTE=AltersAreUs;8743908]
Is the scheduling software really that bad? I would have thought that a) it would allow things like “average of an hour wait time” as part of the constraints going in and b) manually setting certain riders/classes to general time zones, like FEI classes should be in the morning, freestyles over lunch sort of thing. I haven’t used any of them but seriously, in the grand scheme of things, scheduling a dressage show is not a hard mathematical problem. There aren’t THAT many constraints or data points from a computers’ point of view.[/QUOTE]

I would start a new thread and ask experienced schedulers about their input re: the systems. I know that the human touch makes a huge difference, but I’m not the most qualified to answer.

[rothmpp]

[QUOTE=AltersAreUs;8743908]
Is the scheduling software really that bad? I would have thought that a) it would allow things like “average of an hour wait time” as part of the constraints going in and b) manually setting certain riders/classes to general time zones, like FEI classes should be in the morning, freestyles over lunch sort of thing. I haven’t used any of them but seriously, in the grand scheme of things, scheduling a dressage show is not a hard mathematical problem. There aren’t THAT many constraints or data points from a computers’ point of view.[/QUOTE]

The software is only as good as the programming behind it. We all should know by now dressage shows are not big moneymakers and good programmers can be expensive. As well as the ongoing maintenance for any database.

I’d pose the question to those posters here who are having a hard time understanding how scheduling a multi-ring dressage show can be so difficult (and not meant to be snarky) -

How many of you have scheduled a show?

I know it seems like it shouldn’t be all that difficult, but it can be surprisingly hard. I’ve spent twice as many hours as were budgeted trying to make the jigsaw puzzle come together. Many show secretaries do this on a part time or volunteer basis. Along with a outside job, their own animals, families, etc… there are only so many hours in a day. They can continue to tweak the schedule forever, or you get something that offends the least number of people and go with it.

A very wise TD once said when we were talking, “Scheduling is not just a science, it is also an art.”