The half Arabians mentioned in the thread below turned out to be actual Quarter Horses. Even though this is now admitted, the Arabian Horse Association is allowing the owner to keep all the national championships won by these horses. Why? Because he didn’t know they were frauds. Would this happen in any other purebred registry???
First off, the quarter horses were “registered”/showing as partbreds (so not part of a purebred registry). Not sure what other breeds have show opportunities for partbreds. I think it is easier to pass a different breed as a partbred.
But, I think the association is basing their judgement on legal advice: the horses had “legal” registration papers and the owner was not acting in a knowingly fraudulent way. They may be protecting themselves from a possible lawsuit.
Hopefully this leads to DNA testing being required for partbred Arabians.
It really doesn’t matter how they were fraudulently registered. The fraud has been discovered and the papers pulled on these two horses. Only in the Twilight Zone would a breed association then allow the horses to retain the ill gotten winnings.
[QUOTE=SportArab;7937248]
It really doesn’t matter how they were fraudulently registered. The fraud has been discovered and the papers pulled on these two horses. Only in the Twilight Zone would a breed association then allow the horses to retain the ill gotten winnings.[/QUOTE]
They probably figure that it’s too much hassle to alter all of the results, re-award the prizes, and so forth, especially when the owners supposedly had no idea of the fraud.
if I buy , say a car, off someone and all the paper work seems in order yet later on down the road it is discovered that the car had been stolen. Too bad for me, I am out the money spent as well as the car.
Same thing should apply with these horses. someone knowingly committed fraud and that needs to be rectified. USEF manages to redistribute prizes when someone commits and offense and these horses need to be stripped of their titles and prizes given to those who deserve them!
[QUOTE=copper1;7937383]
if I buy , say a car, off someone and all the paper work seems in order yet later on down the road it is discovered that the car had been stolen. Too bad for me, I am out the money spent as well as the car.
Same thing should apply with these horses. someone knowingly committed fraud and that needs to be rectified. USEF manages to redistribute prizes when someone commits and offense and these horses need to be stripped of their titles and prizes given to those who deserve them![/QUOTE]
I don’t know anything about how the AHA operates, but what happened is not the same at all like the example of a stolen car.
What the association may have done is, in the face of possible lawsuits that would cost them more to defend than it has on hand, do the best they can without bringing those lawsuits on.
The AQHA did what was right for the association on the white rule, Marvin Hatley took them to court and guess what, the AQHA lost.
The judge and jury found Hatley right to request his horses be registered even if they broke the association rules, because the rules were limiting trade.
So, now associations know they can’t just make rules, they have to abide by so many other laws first.
It took years for the AQHA to get back on it’s feet from the cost of that lawsuit.
My guess is that the AHA attorneys must know they could possibly be in that situation.
Without a previous rule against horses later shown not to be qualifiable will be stripped of their awards, that can clearly be applied in this situation, if they do so without that rule, they may spend years and resources on lawsuits they may not win and the costs may bankrupt the association even if they did win.
Associations are no different than an individual, some times, even if you are right, you can’t do but so much about some wrongs and preserving their assets is a valid concern for them just as it is for anyone else.
Your analogy is not even remotely apt. The clones were QHs. To allow QH to win prizes at an Arabian Show is so fundamentally wrong it is beyond belief.
IMHO, they may have avoided a lawsuit from Mr. Grove, but they had better start preparing themselves for all of the people who were beaten by the ringers banding together for some sort of legal action. The FB page suggests a USEF protest at the least and some sort of group legal action.
This does not include people like me who debate every year whether it’s really worth it to join and basically decide at the last minute. Not this year - they’re going to get my 2014 membership card cut in pieces with a nasty letter. Of course I’ve had a long love hate relationship with them going back to the 80s, but I truly feel they did not do right by the membership at large in this situation.
So sad, great horses managed by some truly spineless people. 
(:no:
[QUOTE=SportArab;7936939]
The half Arabians mentioned in the thread below turned out to be actual Quarter Horses. Even though this is now admitted, the Arabian Horse Association is allowing the owner to keep all the national championships won by these horses. Why? [/QUOTE]
The “right thing to do” – and I don’t know why it didn’t happen – would be for the owner who “didn’t know they were QHs” to VOLUNTARILY give up his titles, winnings etc. Where is HIS sense of honor? I have heard that he’s pretty much completely out of the Arabian scene, which kind of reminds me of what happened with Bruce Ekstrom and his “not actually Morgan” Morgans. He went off to the newly-founded “Renai” registry, which seemed to attract, hm, a lot of very big name saddleseat trainers who were suspected of cheating.
Re Bluey’s comment, and Mr. Ekstrom, the AMHA was nearly wiped out by the legal case that got him and his horses and their descendants kicked out. There was a MUCH bigger name with a stallion who was pretty much acknowledged as being out of a non-Morgan mare (probably Hackney or ASB), but so many wealthy big-name people were involved, and that horse and his siblings had so many descendants that there is no way the AMHA could have gone after them… It would have been gutted, not only of money but of much of its leadership and many of its registered horses.
Ditto AQHA (and all stock breed registries) WRT HYPP … money talks louder than anything else, it seems.
[QUOTE=quietann;7937599]
The “right thing to do” – and I don’t know why it didn’t happen – would be for the owner who “didn’t know they were QHs” to VOLUNTARILY give up his titles, winnings etc. Where is HIS sense of honor? I have heard that he’s pretty much completely out of the Arabian scene, which kind of reminds me of what happened with Bruce Ekstrom and his “not actually Morgan” Morgans. He went off to the newly-founded “Renai” registry, which seemed to attract, hm, a lot of very big name saddleseat trainers who were suspected of cheating.
Re Bluey’s comment, and Mr. Ekstrom, the AMHA was nearly wiped out by the legal case that got him and his horses and their descendants kicked out. There was a MUCH bigger name with a stallion who was pretty much acknowledged as being out of a non-Morgan mare (probably Hackney or ASB), but so many wealthy big-name people were involved, and that horse and his siblings had so many descendants that there is no way the AMHA could have gone after them… It would have been gutted, not only of money but of much of its leadership and many of its registered horses.
Ditto AQHA (and all stock breed registries) WRT HYPP … money talks louder than anything else, it seems.[/QUOTE]
I do agree, the owners, on finding out their horses were not arabians at all, should have done the right thing and returned awards and retired the horses from competition all on their own, right at the start.
I am surprised they didn’t, which already makes me question what kind of competitors they may be, when they accept and keep a clearly wrong, cheating win.
On the other hand, the associations have to do what they can for the association first, not bankrupt it being pushed by members on a tiff over this or that other, galling as it is to everyone.
Remember, everyone that runs associations is already trying to do their best for the situations as they see and can, that is why they are there and running the associations.
The rest of the members need to let them do their job, not sit back and be armchair quarterbacking.
The administrators want to hear from everyone, helps them know where to go, but not be bad-mouthed no matter what they do.
On the other hand, the administration needs to be very clear why they do what they do and why they don’t do other.
Good communication is the key there.
The trouble, some don’t want to listen, just love to complain, nothing is good enough for them.
There is a lot of good information about this issue on the ArabianBreedersNetwork (ABN) forums. There are also two FaceBook groups taking the lead on this issue. Please PM me if you want links to any or all of the above -I don’t want to run afoul of the mods. My understanding is that there is going to be a lot of litigation. There is also significant (for the Arabian breed show world) prize money involved.
In the stolen car scenario, you are not necessarily out both the money and the car if you were a good faith, bona fide purchaser that did not know the car was stolen. But I digress.
To me this is sad, very sad, and a comment of how far the Arabian breed has departed from the desert type Arabian. Desert type Arabians were by no means beautiful or well comformed animals, but most of them had SOME aspects of type that proved their blood, aspects that got greatly modified by the introduction of impure blood.
The QH/Arab horses I’ve seen have shown the Arab part of their ancestry, it is something about the head/neck/shoulder area that looks so much finer than a pure QH.
As I have said before, the people running the Arabian industry nowadays NEED to reread and study Raswan and Lady Wentworth so that they will KNOW what Arab blood looks like!
[QUOTE=Jackie Cochran;7937656]
To me this is sad, very sad, and a comment of how far the Arabian breed has departed from the desert type Arabian. Desert type Arabians were by no means beautiful or well comformed animals, but most of them had SOME aspects of type that proved their blood, aspects that got greatly modified by the introduction of impure blood.
As I have said before, the people running the Arabian industry nowadays NEED to reread and study Raswan and Lady Wentworth so that they will KNOW what Arab blood looks like![/QUOTE]
I was talking to someone not too long ago who had seen the Arab Nationals or Scottsdale on TV or online. What struck her was the best of breed class, or whatever it was, none of the horses looked like they were the same breed. The park horse looked like a saddlebred, the hunter looked TB, & the reining horse looked like a quarter horse. She found it sad, since she remembered when Arabs looked & moved like Arabs.
Well, we are talking about the same organization (albeit post-merger) that not only failed to take the initiative to sanction a BNT who fraudulently qualified a horse for nationals, but gave him a heads up that he might want to obtain further qualifying points (which were also fraudulent, and which involved a licensed official with the organization.)
My racing lines bred, registered Arab was mistaken for a half bred Arab at a breed show AND had a bigger head than by TB. So not all Arabs have the Egyptian lines look.
He was most frequently mistaken for a Lippizaner.
[QUOTE=Jackie Cochran;7937656]
To me this is sad, very sad, and a comment of how far the Arabian breed has departed from the desert type Arabian. Desert type Arabians were by no means beautiful or well comformed animals, but most of them had SOME aspects of type that proved their blood, aspects that got greatly modified by the introduction of impure blood.
The QH/Arab horses I’ve seen have shown the Arab part of their ancestry, it is something about the head/neck/shoulder area that looks so much finer than a pure QH.
As I have said before, the people running the Arabian industry nowadays NEED to reread and study Raswan and Lady Wentworth so that they will KNOW what Arab blood looks like![/QUOTE]
While I do agree to a certain extent with what you are saying, remember we are talking about HALF Arabs in this instance, so type is not a concern.
And if you look at pix of old Arabians, the concept of “type” is pretty elastic. I have an IAHA yearbook from 1963 and some of those old show horses were coarse and OOOGLY! I don’t care for some of the extremes and fake looking horses you see in halter now, but the idea that there is ONE type of Arab - well, not so much.
Sorry to digress.
ETA: And I own a true 15.3 1/2 purebred that often gets mistaken for a Shagya. Or a half Arab. Or they just can’t figure him out. Lots of crazy stuff in the genetic woodpile!
I am conflicted over this. On the one hand, as the owner of two registered Arabian horses, I want the “purity” of my breed’s registration to be maintained. And I want at least a minimum of fairness to be maintained in their competitive venues and I don’t think ringers from one breed (purpose bred for that particular sport) coming in and competing against true representatives of another breed is fair. At all.
But, and this is a big one for me, The AHA has been a shit storm of cronyism, high roller special treatment, tunnel vision and poor management for a very long time now. And I find it amusing that at least some of the folks who have their panties in a wad right now are the same folks that felt everything was hunky-dory in Arabian land not too long ago.
So a big part of my response to this latest scandal is a shrug. What else is new? Nothing. This is the same organization that has been too supportive of extremely poor breeding decisions (“Hey members of the AHA! If it has testicles or a uterus, BREED IT! Who cares if it ends up at a low end auction! Don’t want to put any effort into breaking anything to ride? NO PROBLEM! We need all the untouched broodmares we can get and a pair of working testicles is the only worth the boys will ever need to have as far as we are concerned”). This is the same organization that let a handful of bullies ruin a woman’s reputation and caused the disbanding of an entire sub-committee based on NOTHING.
This is the same organization that treated a relative few high spenders as if they moved heaven and earth, completely ignoring the owner with one or two registered horses that actually wanted to do something with their horses that didn’t include smearing Vaseline all over their faces and chasing them around with a bagged whip. Or attach weighted, padded shoes and crank their heads up to trot around in all their bug-eyed splendor. Not throwing wads of cash at a few BNTs to compete in either of those two events? You got told to go to the back of the bus.
But now that the smell has wafted over and actually impacted the same people that up until now stared at the ceiling and whistled to themselves whenever the problems within the organization were brought up? They are indignantly yelling and demanding that “we all” band together and fight back.
So I am conflicted. I love the Arabian horse with a steady passion. But I detest the organization and feel no sympathy for those who have been rolling around with the dogs and now have the balls to complain about their fleas.
Sheilah
Really? Most of the folks I know are not AHA high rollers, and they’re pretty damn PO’ed about the latest round of crap.
[QUOTE=SportArab;7937248]
It really doesn’t matter how they were fraudulently registered. The fraud has been discovered and the papers pulled on these two horses. Only in the Twilight Zone would a breed association then allow the horses to retain the ill gotten winnings.[/QUOTE]
This all sounds a bit green.
