Offshoot: Two Quarter Horses allowed to keep Arabian National Championship wins

[Jackie_Cochran]

If one looks at the available of Arabian horses in the desert, guess what, they never look like GSB’s drawing of the “ideal Arab.” They run the gamut from ones that look like TBs on down to mini draft horses when given sufficient feed (I once owned an Al Khamsa mare that would have added wonderful refinement to say-Percherons, wide, blocky, but with the chiseled head.)

However there are subtleties of the head and mitbah that can show “blood” even in the ugliest Arabian.

After 50 years of being besotted by the breed I now think that it has proven a tragedy for the breed that Arabs can be so darn beautiful. It is a pity that all the “ugly” Arabs got culled out of the gene pool. If we had kept them in the gene pool maybe we would not have these long necked weeds that compete at halter now (hey, halter horses are fed a lot since fat hides conformation “sins.”)

Yeah, I know, that is water under the bridge, gone forever.

[Chall]

http://allertonfarm.webs.com/apps/photos/photo?photoid=191030707

See the almost roman nose? 100% Arab, registered. Very kind, playful and always would rebalance me if I slipped when riding bareback.

Those front feet are horrible, I was a long distance border, so didn’t get down to them often enough.

[SportArab]

[QUOTE=IdahoRider;7937766]
I am conflicted over this. On the one hand, as the owner of two registered Arabian horses, I want the “purity” of my breed’s registration to be maintained. And I want at least a minimum of fairness to be maintained in their competitive venues and I don’t think ringers from one breed (purpose bred for that particular sport) coming in and competing against true representatives of another breed is fair. At all.

But, and this is a big one for me, The AHA has been a shit storm of cronyism, high roller special treatment, tunnel vision and poor management for a very long time now. And I find it amusing that at least some of the folks who have their panties in a wad right now are the same folks that felt everything was hunky-dory in Arabian land not too long ago.

So a big part of my response to this latest scandal is a shrug. What else is new? Nothing. This is the same organization that has been too supportive of extremely poor breeding decisions (“Hey members of the AHA! If it has testicles or a uterus, BREED IT! Who cares if it ends up at a low end auction! Don’t want to put any effort into breaking anything to ride? NO PROBLEM! We need all the untouched broodmares we can get and a pair of working testicles is the only worth the boys will ever need to have as far as we are concerned”). This is the same organization that let a handful of bullies ruin a woman’s reputation and caused the disbanding of an entire sub-committee based on NOTHING.

This is the same organization that treated a relative few high spenders as if they moved heaven and earth, completely ignoring the owner with one or two registered horses that actually wanted to do something with their horses that didn’t include smearing Vaseline all over their faces and chasing them around with a bagged whip. Or attach weighted, padded shoes and crank their heads up to trot around in all their bug-eyed splendor. Not throwing wads of cash at a few BNTs to compete in either of those two events? You got told to go to the back of the bus.

But now that the smell has wafted over and actually impacted the same people that up until now stared at the ceiling and whistled to themselves whenever the problems within the organization were brought up? They are indignantly yelling and demanding that “we all” band together and fight back.

So I am conflicted. I love the Arabian horse with a steady passion. But I detest the organization and feel no sympathy for those who have been rolling around with the dogs and now have the balls to complain about their fleas.
Sheilah[/QUOTE]

Well, some of us are old time breeders who have been unhappy for a long time and now feel that this is the LAST straw. It’s such a blatant violation of the rules that it’s impossible to stomach.

[SportArab]

[QUOTE=Equibrit;7937810]
This all sounds a bit green.[/QUOTE]

Please do explain what you mean. I think it’s rather stunningly corrupt to allow wins to stand when the horses are not qualified because they are not the right breed. Shouldn’t have been at the show in the first place and therefore can’t win anything there.

[blackstallion2]

Sickening all the way around. If it were an arabian race instead and a TB with arab papers won, I don’t see any way in hell they would let the owners keep purse $ or titles. All of those allowing them to keep the prizes and most especially the owners who aren’t giving prizes back, the trainers they hired, and any other connections to this unethical decision need to go. Each knew and agreed to the rules.

[IdahoRider]

@Ghazzu;7937772

Really? Most of the folks I know are not AHA high rollers, and they’re pretty damn PO’ed about the latest round of crap.

I am not saying that people aren’t ticked off, and rightly so. This is a travesty and a total kick in the teeth to everyone who strives to protect the breed and it’s interests.

What I find hypocritical, and what has me so conflicted regarding the response to this particular incident, is the fact that a lot of the people who are yelling now and demanding that “everyone” fight to rectify this were very much uninterested in doing anything about the organizational culture at AHA that has allowed this to happen in the first place. Their response was always that the problems were with Main Ring and the politics, ego and money involved there. All those problems had nothing to do with them, so why should they involve themselves.

Well, now that culture has infiltrated their own little corner of the world and suddenly it is time to hand out pitch forks? The time for outrage and action was a long time ago, in my opinion.
Sheilah

[IdahoRider]

@blackstallion2;7938261

Sickening all the way around. If it were an arabian race instead and a TB with arab papers won, I don’t see any way in hell they would let the owners keep purse $ or titles. All of those allowing them to keep the prizes and most especially the owners who aren’t giving prizes back, the trainers they hired, and any other connections to this unethical decision need to go. Each knew and agreed to the rules.

If the owner of the TB in question had deep pockets, and the breed organization in question had a track record of catering to members that have deep pockets? This is what happens. AHA thinks they have the legal wiggle room to not offend Grove, who has deep pockets. They’ll stick with him. So far they have been able to crap all over “the little guy”, the average owner, in favor of the Money Bags. Why should this be any different?
Sheilah

[Raleigh_s_Mom]

@Chall;7938166

http://allertonfarm.webs.com/apps/photos/photo?photoid=191030707

See the almost roman nose? 100% Arab, registered. Very kind, playful and always would rebalance me if I slipped when riding bareback.

Did you have the papers on him?

[blackstallion2]

Then they should not be surprised when the honest exhibitors, who outnumber them, revolt. USEF may not see things the same way.

[IdahoRider]

@blackstallion2;7938334

Then they should not be surprised when the honest exhibitors, who outnumber them, revolt. USEF may not see things the same way.

I certainly hope so. But a lot of things done by the AHA have been allowed to slide for far too long and nothing substantive has been done by anyone.

This is why I let my membership lapse years ago. Me and a lot of other Arab owners.
Sheilah

[oldernewbie]

[QUOTE=IdahoRider;7938297]
I am not saying that people aren’t ticked off, and rightly so. This is a travesty and a total kick in the teeth to everyone who strives to protect the breed and it’s interests.

What I find hypocritical, and what has me so conflicted regarding the response to this particular incident, is the fact that a lot of the people who are yelling now and demanding that “everyone” fight to rectify this were very much uninterested in doing anything about the organizational culture at AHA that has allowed this to happen in the first place. Their response was always that the problems were with Main Ring and the politics, ego and money involved there. All those problems had nothing to do with them, so why should they involve themselves.

Well, now that culture has infiltrated their own little corner of the world and suddenly it is time to hand out pitch forks? The time for outrage and action was a long time ago, in my opinion.
Sheilah[/QUOTE]

Sometimes people can’t quite believe that the bad things are really happening until it bites them in the a$$. They’ll write it off to rumors or sour grapes or ignorance. I think it’s a pretty typical human reaction. Heck, back in the 80s people just completely denied that their was any abuse in the halter ring, even when standing next to a ring full of horses with welts all over them. And I’m not exaggerating, honest!

Not that it’s at all acceptable that people act this way, just not surprising.

[IdahoRider]

@oldernewbie;7938406

Sometimes people can’t quite believe that the bad things are really happening until it bites them in the a$$. They’ll write it off to rumors or sour grapes or ignorance. I think it’s a pretty typical human reaction. Heck, back in the 80s people just completely denied that their was any abuse in the halter ring, even when standing next to a ring full of horses with welts all over them. And I’m not exaggerating, honest!

Not that it’s at all acceptable that people act this way, just not surprising.

Hopefully they’ll have learned something from this experience then. I fear it is too late for AHA. It could be that they will follow the same business model as the Tennessee Walking Horse association and be a-okay bleeding members until the only folks left are the cheaters and the newbies who haven’t gotten schooled enough yet to leave.
Sheilah

[oldernewbie]

[QUOTE=IdahoRider;7938416]
Hopefully they’ll have learned something from this
experience then. I fear it is too late for AHA. It could be that they will follow the same business model as the Tennessee Walking Horse association and be a-okay bleeding members until the only folks left are the cheaters and the newbies who haven’t gotten schooled enough yet to leave.
Sheilah[/QUOTE]

I believe this is a pivotal moment for them for exactly this reason. And, after showing open dressage and finding people much nicer and much fairer, I do have to ask myself, what exactly AM I getting by being an AHA member? And now this…

ETA: I will, however, support (with my former membership $$) the efforts of those who are going to seek some sort of justice for this mess…

[Chall]

Yes. R-Ben-jamin, 1988, July (8?). I don’t have them nearby to give you his number.
He looks more Arab-y here,
http://allertonfarm.webs.com/apps/photos/photo?photoid=191030709

[Raleigh_s_Mom]

[QUOTE=Chall;7938453]
Yes. R-Ben-jamin, 1988, July (8?). I don’t have them nearby to give you his number.
He looks more Arab-y here,
http://allertonfarm.webs.com/apps/photos/photo?photoid=191030709[/QUOTE]

He definitely looks old, old school.

[grayarabs]

Chall - love the horse - but that just cannot be. I would not think it possible a PB - even a part Arab -could have a nose like that.

Have you had the horse tested to verify?

[Chall]

https://www.flickr.com/photos/8325626@N04/809356204/lightbox/

I got him as a long yearling, above he was four. The first photo was taken a month before he died this spring, at age 26.

If you are an Arab expert look him up in the registry. Most people around horses long enough know that you can get plenty of 100% purebreds that aren’t typical.

You might find this an interesting read. http://forums.arabianbreeders.net/index.php?/topic/28291-curiouscan-you-identify-bloodlines-by-looking/

Btw, I would have guessed the first was a quarter horse. Which brings this sidetrack back to the subject of this thread.

[Jackie_Cochran]

Having owned Pure Davenports, a closed Al Khamsa breeding group all descended from DBs in 1907, I can tell you that not all simon-pure Arabs are super refined. One thing I have noticed in ALL breeds, not just the Arab, is that when they are bred to look super-refined (especially the head) that the knee and hock joints become much smaller. Lady Anne Blunt liked the Egyptian Arabians of her time, the heads were so beautiful, but she complained of their hocks being wimpy and curb-y, and mostly crossed them with the Blunt DB stock and their descendents.
I do NOT like super refined heads on Arabians just for this reason, the accompanying small knees and hocks. I have seen an Arab (Russian bred whose head was not very refined) stand beside a TB who had a really pretty refined head, was a good 3" taller, and the smaller Arab had MUCH bigger knee and hock joints.

To me the statement that an Arabian, pure or part-bred, is good enough to win at halter tells me that I want nothing to do with that horse. Small knee and hock joints usually have many more problems under heavy work, and if you breed Arabs who cannot stand up to heavy work why are you breeding? Throughout history the Desert Arabian has been known for toughness more so than for beauty. A pretty Arab whose legs break down under hard work is pretty worthless to me.

Chall, I love your Arab. Not too refined, nice big knee and hock joints, deep jowl bone well separated from the neck, sure he would not win at halter but almost 100% of DB Arabs of yore would never win a modern Arabian halter class either.

[Chall]

Sob. Thank you.
i never posted pictures of him when he was alive, I somehow didn’t want anyone to say anything bad about him. Not for me, but because he didn’t deserve it.

[SportArab]

Not all Arabians have that seahorse shaped head. The breed description is a triangular shaped head.

At any rate, it’s clear from this whole fiasco with the Quarter Horses that the AHA should have been either blood typing or DNA typing all half Arabians.

My halfs are all warmblood crosses and as such have been DNA typed by the GOV. So there won’t be any surprises there.