Oh dear, clueless new boarder (and a question about tom thumb bits)

[DJohn]

I may be the odd one out, but this guy doesn’t sound half bad! As for the “potential GF”, she may be a pain in the butt, but she’s still eyes on the ground.
This guy may be a bit mislead, but he seems like he has the right qualities to become a good horseman.

I would offer to lend him one of my snaffles and ask him how it goes. Do you ride your horses? Maybe he will watch you and learn. We all start out a little floppy and awkward. If he’s got a good horse, he’s already on the right track. You would be in a million times worse situation if it was a hardly broke wild thing.

I’d say give it time, let him learn. You could suggest the odd lesson, but if he just wants to trail ride, let him figure it out.

We were all “new” at one point, as much as all of us pretend we weren’t! It’s just like learning to drive manual, we all stalled out a time or two.

[cloudy18]

I think maybe it’s considered a Tom Thumb bc of the straight shanks. While it may not be the most evil bit in the world, the horse is used to a snaffle and the rider shouldn’t be riding with a bit like this.

I have a Junior Cowhorse that was recommended to me, probably for all the wrong reasons, but it did work well on my little mare for trail riding. I’m curious as to the pros/cons of a broken mouthpiece vs one that’s not, in regards to a leverage bit.

[Miss_Anne_Thrope]

[QUOTE=DJohn;8531096]
I may be the odd one out, but this guy doesn’t sound half bad! As for the “potential GF”, she may be a pain in the butt, but she’s still eyes on the ground.
This guy may be a bit mislead, but he seems like he has the right qualities to become a good horseman.

I would offer to lend him one of my snaffles and ask him how it goes. Do you ride your horses? Maybe he will watch you and learn. We all start out a little floppy and awkward. If he’s got a good horse, he’s already on the right track. You would be in a million times worse situation if it was a hardly broke wild thing.

I’d say give it time, let him learn. You could suggest the odd lesson, but if he just wants to trail ride, let him figure it out.

We were all “new” at one point, as much as all of us pretend we weren’t! It’s just like learning to drive manual, we all stalled out a time or two.[/QUOTE]

Yes! I really like him, which is why I don’t want to see him going down the wrong road with a nice horse that turns balky or worse.

And I could probably fill pages with the stupid stuff I did. Here’s a big one to start. I bought a highly trained h/j horse who was a bit too much horse for me, and then I immediately (within a month!) bought a 3-year-old pretty-faced unbroke mare. Granted I was too stupid to know better, and the seller NEVER should have sold me (rank beginner, late 40s) that horse, but here I am 13 years later, still alive, relatively unscathed, riding that (now) sweet mare. We wasted a lot of time, though, going through bad trainers, accepting and then discarding bad advice, etc., so I can see the potential problems for a new horse owner and hope, in my own small way, I can help him avoid those as much as possible.

[enjoytheride]

If you want to become involved had him show you things in catalogs so you can approve it before he heads to the tack store. The boarder at my barn was sold a narrow tree 15 inch western saddle for his 200 plus pound frame and whisky barrel horse. Half because he doesn’t know what he’s doing and half because the tack store saw a sucker.

[HungarianHippo]

Well, what the OP described sounds like someone who has never trotted or cantered before–not just floppy and awkward. If that guy had more than 5 hours of saddle time in his life I’ll be surprised. So he knows nothing about riding, horse care, tack, etc. None of this makes him a bad guy, but it will take a ton of time to teach him everything he needs to know. And her time is valuable.

If the OP wants to train this guy in all these areas, that’s really generous. But just be 100% clear about why she’s taking on boarders. Does she expect that boarding horses should generate extra income–or is she ok with her boarding “operation” taking a loss, and it’s just something she does for fun/company?

I might structure it as an investment-- maybe he ends up being a reliable long-term boarder * – but define an end-game that the boarder agrees to. "OK, Mr. Boarder, I lik you andyour horse, but you don’t have the skills you need to own a horse. But I’m willing to put in the extra time to help you learn over the next 6 months. Here’s a list of “basic skills” I’m going to teach you, and by end of summer you’ll need to be proficient. (basics of riding, tacking up, safe handling, healthcare-- warm up and cool down horse, know the signs of colic, identify lameness, how to take temp, pulse, etc).
Mr Boarder, this is a big time commitment on my part, and in other barns you’d have to pay someone to train you. So if you want to board here, you have to commit and work hard to learn this stuff and practice it. If you haven’t “graduated” by September, I’ll suggest some full-service barns that are better equipped to meet your needs."

*but demographically speaking, are 21-yr old guys reliable long-term anythings? :lol:

[TheJenners]

Depends on how involved you want to be OP.

People keep saying you should teach him lessons… Are you an instructor? Are you concerned about ammie status? That wasn’t addressed. Boarding doesn’t affect status but riding his horse or giving him lessons will. If I ever got in your situation where I took on a boarder or three in empty stalls, I would NEVER instruct because I like being an ammie (former pro). It’s one thing to give advice, or require that he get basic lessons from an insured instructor.

[Miss_Anne_Thrope]

Nope, not an instructor. I show a bit as an ammie, so yes, that’s a consideration. I think it would be nice to have somebody to trail ride with, and my trail-riding partner until recently is out of the picture for awhile (pregnant … how dare she?!).

Speaking of ammie status and instructing, I used to let a neighbor girl take lessons on one of my horses. She paid for the use of the horse by cleaning stalls. Then, once a week or so she would come and practice under my supervision and paid for that (my time plus use of horse), too, by cleaning stalls. No money exchanged between me and the girl. Would that affect ammie status? I never really thought about it back then.

[mountainhorse]

Regardless of what your final thoughts are with him, I would suggest giving him a call and asking to have a sit down chat to discuss these issues with him, not just ‘in passing’.
Let him know you want him as a boarder (as it sounds you do), however, you have noticed some things that are not safe and need to change in order for him to stay at your facility.
#1-girl friend (GF or friend that is a girl, whatever), probably does not need to have permission to ride at your facility anymore. From your brief description, it sounds like she did not sign a waiver and was not practicing safe riding techniques. Explain to him about the liability of that and you are not willing to put up with it.
#2-if you are wanting to help him learn, have a list of things you expected he know about horses, and you can show him. To keep ammie status, no exchange of goods or monies involved, just your good will.

I think it comes down to you deciding if you are willing to keep him on. I would make it very clear with him though from the start, what is expected and what you will not put up with.

ETA- do you take lessons with anyone or have a local trainer that travels to barns? Perhaps it is an opportunity for you to set up a regular trainer to come in and teach from your barn, though if it is only 21-yr old and you, you will need to probably have a hand full of other local riders that can trailer in for lessons also. Make sure your insurance covers trailer ins.

[PaperPony]

If you have that many options, run from this guy! Imagine how much better your life could be with one boarder who is knowledgeable, helpful, polite, and stays out of your way. I have been you before, get this person gone as quickly as possible.

[TheJenners]

Yes that would affect your status

[fordtraktor]

If you are boarding and you do anything related to assisting this person your ammie status is gone. You can’t even get on it once. Well, if you want to stay “clean.”

I have never ridden my boarded horses, ever.

[Miss_Anne_Thrope]

Well, I had a very productive session with the young man today. We tried the horse using my full-cheek snaffle, the tom thumb (or not tom thumb?) is going back. We tried on the saddle, and the gullet (is that what it’s called in a western saddle?) was far too narrow for this horse. I am no saddle-fitting expert, but I told him to look for one with full quarter horse bars and make sure he can return it if it doesn’t fit right. We did a little “respect” work in the indoor arena … “yes, horsie, you will do what I ask, I will not get upset with you if you don’t, but you will not get your way, harrumph!”

He was very receptive to the basic advice I feel qualified to give, and I enjoyed helping him out, but of course will have to guard my time. Next step is to saddle up two horses (when the weather breaks) and ride a little bit together in the outdoor. I think with my mare out there to give him (the horse) confidence, he’ll be a lot easier to manage.

[Red_Barn]

You sound like such a kindly person, Miss Anne Thrope.

:yes:

Let’s just hope this is one of those rare instances where a good deed actually does go unpunished.

[chai]

Miss Anne Thorpe,
I feel for you because I had two boarders that are similar to your newbie. Here’s the thing: if you are like me, and you can’t look away if someone is being unsafe on your property and you care for the horse and its welfare, you have two choices: put in some time to help Mr. Newbie if he is willing to listen and learn or send him on his way to a barn with a resident trainer.
The bit you showed in the photo has, imho, a severe enough shank that it should not be in the hands of a beginner. The curb action if used with the beginner rider who has not yet learned subtlety could really hurt a horse and cause behaviors in that animal that could start an unfair downward spiral for the animal. I teach many beginners, so I know how they can over-use their hands in exaggerated or jerky movement until they become more balanced, confident and experienced. It’s not fair to the horse to put a bit with fairly severe curb action into a beginner’s hands.
My best friend growing up used a Tom Thumb pelham on her strong Connemara pony out in the hunting field because he would just laugh at a snaffle, so there are times when a bit with a curb can be helpful if used correctly.
I would also urge you to make anyone who comes onto your property to interact with the horses sign a hold harmless, and give your boarders a list of barn rules.
If the newbie owner is a nice guy with a real desire to learn and he’s a hard worker, it could be a really nice, long term boarding relationship. Best of luck!

[o0rxkxrox0o]

[QUOTE=furlong47;8529411]
Well, I see it quite possible that he went in asking for a snaffle bit and saying he rides Western and someone mistakenly thought this would fit the bill. It’s surprising how many horse people, even experienced ones, don’t realize that a broken mouthpiece is NOT what makes a snaffle bit. A lack of leverage is. I’ve even seen it already on this thread. If he’s willing to be educated ditch the Tom Thumb and get a more stable, gentle bit to start.[/QUOTE]

I agree, to a beginner a TT can look like a snaffle.

And I just read the update. Awesome

[ReSomething]

When I went trail riding this summer the gal there called her Tom Thumb an Argentine Snaffle. It was the basic old colt breaking bit she had , but this is what I googled up https://search.yahoo.com/yhs/search?p=argentine+snaffle+short+shank&ei=UTF-8&hspart=mozilla&hsimp=yhs-004

I’m beginning to think it’s totally unsafe to send people shopping without a photo of EXACTLY what they need to get because none of us in the horse world seem to be able to cross disciplines and agree on a darned thing.

[findeight]

Those are broken mouth curbs NOT snaffles. No wonder newbies get confused, some not so newbies as well. TT is a broken mouthed curb, never has been a snaffle in Western or English.

[NoSuchPerson]

[QUOTE=ReSomething;8533967]
When I went trail riding this summer the gal there called her Tom Thumb an Argentine Snaffle. [/QUOTE]

Tom Thumb and Argentine Snaffle are not the same bit. There are distinct differences in the shank, among other things.

But neither is a snaffle.

[findeight]

Tom Thumb is a literary creation, a boy the size of a mans thumb. Hans Christian Anderson I think.

The Tom Thumb bits are curbs but have a very, very short shank. Like, the size of a thumb. They usually have attachments for both snaffle and curb rein in English disciplines, may or may not if designed for Western. They may have a broken mouth or not. But they all have the stubby shank that generated the T T name.

Me? I don’t like them in English riding. If you really need the curb, the shank is two short and the reins so close together they are almost on top of each other so niether produces the desired effect. Seem to be out of favor too, haven’t seen many the last few years. See them mostly as beginner rider bits in Western or on trail horses and dude strings where the only alternative they seem to use is a longer shank.

Never used them Western either, personal preference. Like a standard curb bit used more lightly to show and a snaffle to school in. Some people do like the broken mouth TTs for youngsters to transition from snaffle to curb and I can understand their logic.

[Nezzy]

the Tom Thumb Bits advertised in catalogs are 6 inch shanks, I have NEVER seen a short shank on a TT. They are not a snaffle, they are a jointed curb bit, which causes much confusion in the horse. I recently saw a TT with double joints in the mouthpiece and i wondered if that would be a bit more comfortable for horse, but not sure it would communicate better.