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Ok guys, How do I look?? (Hunting turnout and such..)

Hunting
#1

So the job I started in late December has me out hunting when the boss goes or when one of our clients goes.

So I have some nice shots of me to smile at. But I was curious correctness wise, how am I doing??

(Bear in mind this is not my first go round. I did 2 years with Greenspring, 1 with Moore County, and 3-4 with Elkridge Harford. Also have visited and capped with a bunch of nice ones, Piedmont, Loudoun West, Orange Co, Va, A hunt in California I cannot recall, and some others. All of these have been as a groom or guest. I have never been a member. And FYI the coat I am wearing in these pics is borrowed from my boss, since I do not own a melton, plain or otherwise. )

http://jimgraham.exposuremanager.com/p/cheshire_1_1_2008/238e035222

http://jimgraham.exposuremanager.com/p/cheshire_1_1_2008/wq7c103131

http://jimgraham.exposuremanager.com/p/cheshire_02_09_2008/jeg_207951#photo_s

Thanks for looking,

~Emily

#2

What is your question? How do you look in your turnout or your riding?

Is this a hunter pace? or a hunt meet?

#3

The question is basically open to let anyone comment where they feel there is something to say, along the constructive criticism lines.

These are all from out hunting. Over two different hunts in the past month.

~Emily

#4

Are those colors on your collar? If you haven’t earned the colors for that hunt (a borrowed coat) it is bad form to wear colors.

When you go to another hunt as a guest–it is also bad form to wear colors from a hunt where you have earned your colors. When you go as a guest–to a hunt where you do not have earned colors…you wear a plain jacket. UNLESS they ask you to to wear your colors ahead of time.:winkgrin:

I don’t know if there are rules on this but I personally don’t like to see boots in the field. Just a chance for mud, sticks, burrs to get stuck and rub the ponies. IF a horsey must wear boots—I like them to be dark. :smiley:

Hope that helps some.

#5

Won’t be long before you get a bloody nose!

#6

Equibrit… I am gonna guess that you’re referring to my shoulder dropping forward too much?? But your comment wasn’t 100% clear.

Bosox, we did discuss the coat and the colors with the “powers that be” and they said it was fine.

Re: Boots… not my call. It’s what the bosses want, and to be honest with Cheshire it seems to be a growing trend. I agree though, no boots on my previous hunting mounts. But so far I have not seen any problems with the ones that had them.

~Emily

#7

The square pad needs to go and so does the bit converter. From some of your other posts I think you are a good enough rider to not need it or to use a different bit.
Both of those are a pet peeve of mine, but esp the square pad.
Your riding looks ok, except maybe you’re holding his face too much, but I can see that if it’s a horse you haven’t ridden much or whatever.

#8

Jaeger-

Quick points:

1.) The tack on him is his tack. (as dictated by my employer and not [yet] able to be altered.)

2.) The Square pad is a new invention by one of my bosses… Thus we use it.

3.) Agree that it may look like I am holding onto his face too much, however in eventing we tend to use a shorter direct release on xc and stadium. See examples below:

From Rolex '04:

William Fox Pitt: http://www.cmannphoto.com/Photoshop%20pages/2004Rolex/pages/4r3d5557.htm

Kim Severson: http://www.cmannphoto.com/Photoshop%20pages/2004Rolex/pages/4r3d5638.htm

From WEG '06:

Will Faudree: http://www.cmannphoto.com/2006_WEG/Event_SJ_Medal/pages/06WEG13970.htm

Mary King:
http://www.cmannphoto.com/2006_WEG/Event_SJ_Medal/pages/06WEG14268.htm

I am not saying that I 100% resemble these icons of my sport, but my lessons and education has been from the same school of thought.

~Emily

#9

Well, gee, Emily, you’ve asked for constructive criticism and then come up with an excuse for each flaw noted. Make up your mind whether you really want tips or not.

  1. Balderdash on the short release excuses. If you look at the pictures you gave links to, you will see that except for Fox Pitt, those horses’ noses are where they should be, and they are able to use themselves appropriately given the obstacle. In Fox Pitt’s case, could just be a horse that needs that much support over a fence- I showed a jumper in France that was much the same way, and my ex-steeplechaser really wanted you to keep hold over the fence. Your horse is not able to use himself as he should. Give him a good six inches and let him do the work. Better yet, just learn to use a following hand, your horse will thank you.

  2. Lose the converter. You say that is that horse’s tack- well, fine, but that bit is designed to be ridden with two reins. I allowed my son to use a converter when hunting- but he was 8 years old and needed the pelham so the horse wouldn’t graze at will. I learned to use double reins at age 10, I’ll bet you can handle it.

  3. Your turnout is fine for eventing, not fine for hunting. If you want to pass muster with the turnout police, do lose the square pad- get the boss to invent a fitted one! Also get an approved helmet that is black velvet. And lose the boots on the horse- doesn’t look to me like he needs them, and boots pick up mud and gunk and can really tear up a horse’s legs out hunting. And as noted, if you haven’t earned those colors, don’t wear them. You say you got an okay but it is unclear to me whether this is a borrowed coat or whether they are colors from another hunt- if it’s your coat and you are no longer with the other hunt, the colors should come off, anyway. If it’s a borrowed coat, well, okay once or twice, but if you really intend to keep hunting, get a plain black coat- plenty of sources like Old Habit for used ones at decent prices.

#10

Thank you Beverly.
The OP asked if her turnout was ok for hunting, she didn’t say she was at an event. Her turnout is not ok for hunting. She needs to lose the square pad and the bit converter.

I understand about eventing etc, I have been doing this for awhile. It was nice to see the Rolex photo gallery, although I think I have been showing and riding for probably as long as the OP. I’ve also been hunting for 10 years and have served in various staff capacities FWIW.

But I don’t think the OP is Kim Severson or whoever jumping some monster at Rolex, she’s jumping a 2’6 or so vertical at a foxhunt. Let go of his face, he looks reined in and behind the bit to me. I tried to give her the benefit of the doubt but I guess that wasn’t good enough.
I don’t know why people ask questions if they just want everyone to tell them what they want to hear and then argue about everything when we don’t do that.

#11

I agree with the others. You need to get your butt closer to the saddle and let go of the horse a bit more over the jumps.

#12

Agree with the others (I used to event too)

Your position resembles my jumping position which is the major reason I had to have back surgery and have had to return to hilltopping to get my nerve back. Equibrit thinks you may just get a bloody nose - I think you may get worse.

Lose the square pad, the converter, the boots, and the colors. Colors are earned - while the “Powers that Be” may have approved, I can’t help but wonder if it was under some sort of duress. It’s not done - just like wearing the pink coat isn’t done unless you’re on the Team. A heck of a lot of folks keep extras in their trailer, or a used one can be had very cheaply. Heck - I got a spare heavyweight Melton brand new for 100$. Boots - nice that it’s a “trend” - but I don’t associate foxhunting with trendiness. Boots are a detriment and a danger in the hunt field. Wave bye bye to the boots.

Eventing is eventing, hunting is hunting. Two different sports with different traditions and turnout requirements. Don’t muddle them.

Your release and position are a detriment in the hunt field - which is REAL xc riding and has to be ridden defensively. Get off his mouth and neck.

And I mean that in the kindest way. If you want to see a more defensive (dare I say old fashioned?) position, watch Bruce Davidson. Now there’s a guy that does not get in his horse’s way.

Sorry if that offends you - none is intended.

I’m not really into the whole I’m ok you’re ok everyone’s a winner group hug thing.

#13

Oh, dear - J Swan will have to be heavily sedated if we ever manage to lure her away from Safe-T-Man to come hunt with the beagles out here in Cactusville… :lol:

Let’s see if I can catalog our many sins…

First, not only are our hunt’s pads SQUARE, they are hunter green with gold trim, and they have POCKETS on them so that we can carry bottled water for the hounds when we hunt fixtures without standing water (most of them).

We allow people in Western saddles to hunt with us.

Quite a few of us (but not all) put boots on our horses - no way I’m exposing my ponies’ legs to the cactus & other crap out there with no protection.

You should see what I’m riding Mr. Blondie in these days - Myler combi bit with sheepskin on the noseband, with black (formal!) baling twine between the browband and the noseband to keep the noseband from falling down so I don’t have to tighten the curb too tight. VERY white trash.

I think we’re okay on the colors front, although one of our members did award colors to her little dog, Crystal, who often comes along (not to hunt - she stays at the trailers and has breakfast with us after).

Fortunately, we almost never have anything to jump, so we’re safe on that count. Although Prozac Pony did sail rivenoak over a bush and a ditch today while they were fieldmastering. The ditch she was expecting; the bush was a bonus. He was quite full of himself afterwards.

Maybe you could just send Kevin Bacon out to visit us instead - he might feel more at home with us :lol:

#14

Emily-

I’m not going to criticize, just wondering who you are working for now. I know you were exercise riding at the track, so just wondering what the change is to. Feel free to PM me if you don’t want to go public.

I agree that boots are a trend, but if anything, talk with the boss and try to go with black boots, which are a little less distracting than the blaring white ones!

I’ll leave the rest to the others.

#15

I also event

But my Charles Owens GR8 stays in the helmet bag and I wear a Charles Owens plain velvet show jumper.

Gloves should be brown, not black.

fitted pad, not square as others have said.

Lose the colors. That is not done and if you are a professional really will send the wrong message to prospective clients.

I event too but there’s no reason to get in a horse’s face. The upper level riders have their horse in more of a frame but they don’t go around hanging on them.

http://www.pbase.com/lesliegra/image/78141346

http://www.pbase.com/lesliegra/image/78141352

Becky Douglas

http://www.pbase.com/lesliegra/image/78141347

Phillip Dutton

http://www.pbase.com/lesliegra/image/78141357

http://www.pbase.com/lesliegra/image/78141359

Amy Tryon

http://www.pbase.com/lesliegra/image/78141341

Leslie Granger (that’s me)

http://www.pbase.com/stl_don/image/78141828

Eventers are called “Kickers and Pullers” for a reason, that doesn’t make it right.

Interesting though. I went throught he slide show. There were a lot of square pads and quite a few skunk helmets. I suppose if that’s what is appropriate for that hunt.

Our hunt is very proper and I prefer it that way.

There’s also some wild jumpers in that group. Some pretty green looking and scary horses.

#16

[QUOTE=Risk-Averse Rider;2998063]
Let’s see if I can catalog our many sins…

First, not only are our hunt’s pads SQUARE, they are hunter green with gold trim, and they have POCKETS on them so that we can carry bottled water for the hounds when we hunt fixtures without standing water (most of them).

We allow people in Western saddles to hunt with us.

Quite a few of us (but not all) put boots on our horses - no way I’m exposing my ponies’ legs to the cactus & other crap out there with no protection.

You should see what I’m riding Mr. Blondie in these days - Myler combi bit with sheepskin on the noseband, with black (formal!) baling twine between the browband and the noseband to keep the noseband from falling down so I don’t have to tighten the curb too tight. VERY white trash.

Maybe you could just send Kevin Bacon out to visit us instead - he might feel more at home with us :lol:[/QUOTE]

If your hunt specifies square pads or whatever then that’s fine. Most don’t and correct turnout is usually a shaped pad.
I mentioned the converter because I believe that if you can’t use a piece of equipment correctly then you should use something else.
I didn’t mention the boots because I really think that is a personal decision influenced by many things (the horse, the territory, etc)
Our hunt allows people to hunt in Western Saddles too, we just ask they stay with the hilltoppers so as not to mess up photos.
We in our hunt also don’t say anything about bits, just there has to be one, (no hackamores etc)
And you’re right about the colors. I didn’t mention it because I was under the impression that it was a borrowed coat, the OP hadn’t hunted much, but then I looked at her website and she states that she has been “hunting regularly” for over 10 years with several hunts. She actually was employed as a rider with an MFH and a hunt sec. for a year each. So she should have a black coat and know if her turnout is correct or not after all that hunting.

#17

Ok lets see if I can pull a miracle out of my butt…That miracle being “understanding”

To clarify, I did ask for opinions and I have read them all. And like it or not, I see the valid points mentioned. I will work on my hunting position…that is if we get to hunt again. Down to 14 degrees here tonight. Can ya say “Rock solid ground.” But I do take the critiques seriously. Even though I have been misconstrued as using the eventer teachings as an excuse. It was not intended as such. And furthermore I would never assume myself to be a more or less accomplished rider than any of you. If I by some eggregious wayward step treaded into this territory, I am truly sorry and didn’t intend for that.

Ok now to try to explain a couple of my earlier comments that also came off as excuses. This job I have I have only had for a month now. My ability to invoke change is not yet enacted, though it may be sometime in the future. So I mentioned that there were some elements of my “overall look” in the pics I gave that are out of my control. Not to give myself excuses, but rather to explain their presence in the photos. The first 2 pics are from the hunt 3 days after I started the job. And the last picture was from yesterday.

The horse and I are getting acquainted and yesterday was a much more cohesive ride for us as a team. But sadly Jim only got the one lack luster side shot.

Of the points you have made this is what I heard you all say:

In a “proper” hunt these elements should be changed:

1.) Replace the Charles Owen helmet with a Velvet. (I have 2, easy to do)
2.) Lose the Bit converters
3.) Shift back to a fitted pad
4.) Wear a plain black Melton or remove colors from existing
- Question… I have a Pikeur Diana frock coat, it has been my thought that it’s not advisable to wear b/c it has silver buttons. Am I correct on this? (Of course colors on a borrowed coat is admittedly a far worse offense)
5.) Lose the boots…on the horse
6.) Work to give a better release and tuck my butt down and shoulders back.

Now here’s the next question, and its serious…

Once I change all of these things, those in this hunt are all still doing things their way. Square pads, “Skunk helmets” (Loved that btw) and other things that are not deemed “proper.” So the question is, Who is not proper? Me the groom that conformed to the standards mentioned here, or the members that seem to be re-writing what is “proper” for their hunt???

Overall I have been shocked over and over at the ‘casualness’ and lack of ‘field order’ that I have seen. But then a field of over 150 people, and no hilltoppers leader just blew me away.

I shouldn’t be surprised to hear that these folks are not showing properness, but I guess I am. This is a widely touted hunt that I had expected a much different experience from.

OK anyway, thank you all for your honest answers. I did hear you and I do appreciate your input.

~Emily

Edited to add:

[QUOTE=Jaegermonster;2998150]
And you’re right about the colors. I didn’t mention it because I was under the impression that it was a borrowed coat, the OP hadn’t hunted much, but then I looked at her website and she states that she has been “hunting regularly” for over 10 years with several hunts. She actually was employed as a rider with an MFH and a hunt sec. for a year each. So she should have a black coat and know if her turnout is correct or not after all that hunting.[/QUOTE]

I did work for them, in '92 and '93. And I had forgotten the rules about colors. I should have asked more people I guess, just didn’t. No excuses.

#18

Foxhunting like the rest of the world has become more casual. In fact many of the hunts in England are far more casual than some of the hunts in the US.

My husband blames it on the 1980s and the leisure suit.

Our hunt is 80 years old and dress is quite formal for the midwest. What irks me the most in the field is horses with unpulled manes and not clipped. It just plain looks sloppy.

I like that in eventing we can choose wild colors. I also like it in eventing that we have a specific dress code. I feel special when I get to hunt on Wednesdays and can choose what tweed to wear that day. I’ve even made some plaid stock ties for informal hunt days so that I can really be on the edge.

I was suprised by the slide show and some of the attire in your hunt. There are clearly many who abide by the traditional turn out and a few that don’t. Then there is the jumping style. But of course, post and rail fences like that are really hard to get a nice jump over.

It’s hard, the master’s don’t want to drive people off by being over critical of turnout and horse behaviour. But if you let it all go, then the whole hunt will deteriorate.

Interestingly the hunt I am with I have seen an improvement in riding skill in general over the last 25 years. It is rare that anyone has a refusal in the hunt field. It is also rare for anyone to fall off.

On the other hand our fields are smaller. So who knows where this will lead.

#19

Well, let me say this: our hunt has a very detailed and descriptive hunt packet that delineates what is acceptable etc as far as turnout of horse and rider. There are also several very good resources that do the same. I wonder sometimes if anyone reads them.

I think every hunt has people that are exemplary in their turnout and etiquette etc, and then  people who  look as though they slept in their hunt kit and could care less how their horse looks.  I think that is terribly disrespectful, not only to the hunt, staff, especially the landowners, but to yourself and most importantly, your horse. Sometimes I want to carry hairnets in my pocket and hand them out.  We have some people who make every effort to follow the rules to the letter, and others who could care less.   Admittedly we cut more slack to people who are just capping, but some of the worst offenders are long time members, on all counts.

I guess what i am saying is you can’t worry about what others are putting on themselves or their horses because it’s something you have no control over. That is for the Field Master or MFH or whoever is designated to deal with that if they so choose.
You can, however, control yourself and your mount, more or less. See what is expected for that particular hunt and try to do it. Who cares if others look like crap, you make sure your turnout is exemplary. believe me, people notice, even if you think they don’t.

   Proper hunt turnout should not draw attention to itself. It should be workmanlike and functional.  It should not say, Look at Me! It should say, I'm here to work!.  There should be nothing on you or your horse that will draw attention.  The greatest compliment that can ever be paid to you in the hunt field is "Why I didn't even know you were there!"

As you are a guest, (and I don’t know what status your boss has in the hunt, and yes, it matters) you are usually given a little leeway in your turnout. But I think your Pikeur should be fine.

The boots are a personal thing, I use boots on my horse as many of our territories have lots of wire and other hazards. I would rather tear up a Woof boot than my horses leg with wire or a thorny vine. If you think he needs them, use them. But definitely the bit converters and the pad, then the jacket, then the helmet (you can always get a cover til you can shell out $$ for another). With our hunt, if you’re a guest you get slack but if you join then we would like you to get the correct stuff. Most folks can’t shell out all that $$ at the same time, so it’s ok to get it a piece at a time.

But that’s pretty much it. You weren’t that horrible, it was just a few little easily fixable things.

#20

Mais non, JSwan will not need sedation, because she knows that each Master is The Final Arbiter of attire and accoutrements for that hunt. I know several hunts that have neato square pads with their hunt’s logo on it. And I also have a neato square pad w/pockets after admiring one used by former MFH Edith Conyers. And, I got a saddlemaker in Reno to make me a leather holder customized to hold a 1/2 liter water bottle because huntin’ out here in the west w/o water is not safe, and hunting with y’all in Flagstaff is The Driest conditions I have ever seen! And don’t know a hunt anywhere that doesn’t allow western saddles or whatever English equipment/attire one has, for trying out the sport. It only makes sense to be sure you really want to get into hunting before acquiring the attire and equipment! I do have a thing about boots in the hunt field, but to each his own! Mine did fine chez vous w/o boots, and I regularly ride them in cactus country w/o boots- but yeah, you do need to check and remove spines after riding!

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