Old Fashioned retired--Fragile Unbridled's Song

He’s another of the Unbridled’s Song three year olds who broke down in a race early in his 3 year old year. He has a non-displaced slab fracture of the knee which has had surgery to fix. But the injury will prevent him from returning to his full capacity.

Seems to me that the Unbridled’s Song reputation for fragile but fast young racers is being more and more supported with examples. Old Fashioned’s pedigree doesn’t look filled with crosses to fragile lines, although he does have a double to RAN. His dam was a very successful racehorse who was a big winner in 17 or so races and has a double to Prince John.

I’m wondering if the Unbridled’s Song “problem” might be that the line is slow maturing and the owners are just running them too soon for their bones. Larry Jones hasn’t had great luck with running them as 3 year olds.

His get seem to be notoriously fragile. Big and strong-looking, but with iffy underpinnings. You might be right about letting them mature and running them as late 3 year-olds and 4 year olds. But when you’ve got that much money tied up in either a stud fee or a high purchase price, and the baby is showing early talent. . .I can’t see anyone deciding to wait and see. Certainly no one wants to be the guinea pig on that experiment.

This is going to sound harsh, but if I were to log on to the Blood-Horse site tomorrow and see that Unbridled’s Song had been pensioned due to suddenly becoming sterile, I’d be happy about it.

I think maybe part of the problem is that Unbridled’s Song is a mixture of the very fast and precocious Mr. P, Fappiano lines crossed with quite a few relatively slow maturing lines in the rest of his pedigree.
http://www.pedigreequery.com/unbridleds+song

His sire’s dam is from Le Fabuleux/Wild Risk and In Reality lines; and his dam is by Caro. Those lines are not known for fragility.

I think it goes back farther than UBS. Cahill Road, who is a full to Unbridled stands locally and you see the same traits in his offspring as the UBS, although not nearly as successful on the track obviously. The good ones are good, but we have not bred to him because he has so many with bad knees that never make it to the track.

[QUOTE=Mara;4024496]
His get seem to be notoriously fragile. Big and strong-looking, but with iffy underpinnings. You might be right about letting them mature and running them as late 3 year-olds and 4 year olds. But when you’ve got that much money tied up in either a stud fee or a high purchase price, and the baby is showing early talent. . .I can’t see anyone deciding to wait and see. Certainly no one wants to be the guinea pig on that experiment.

This is going to sound harsh, but if I were to log on to the Blood-Horse site tomorrow and see that Unbridled’s Song had been pensioned due to suddenly becoming sterile, I’d be happy about it.[/QUOTE]

They are only fragile becuase they are being raced at 2 when they are 17 hand plus horses that have a TON Of growing to do before their growth plates shut completely. Any horse that size should be started slowly in my opinon. He is a wonderful Stallion, but when you take his huge babies and make them train at a young age you are going to get horse that breaks down A LOT!!! That is just the reality of training a HUGE horse.

I would never go to Unbridled Song. They are all fragile. Same is true with Songandaprayer. Talented, but brittle. But the commercial breeders will still take their mares to them because they look great as yearlings and 2 year olds.

I saw an awful lot of UBS when I was galloping at the track. I was never impressed by him physically. To put it Irishly, I thought he wasn an awful looking yoke. That was well before I was a breeder and now that I am a breeder, I definitely wouldn’t breed to him. I actually do have to like a stallion physically and match them to my mares.

Yes, they probably are more slow maturing individuals. But even the ones over here don’t seem to hold up and it would be a place where a horse would have more of a chance to mature if need be. But it could be the turf.

Terri

I realize it’s easy to jump on a bandwagon and Unbridleds Song has become a rather fashionable online whipping boy lately but I find it hard to blame him for Old Fashioned problem–a slab fracture of his right knee. While the Unbridled line in general isn’t known for its soundness, knees are not usually where their issues present themselves.

Old Fashioned is out of a Meadowlake mare. Meadowlake himself had knee problems and made only three career starts. For those looking to cast blame somewhere, that’s another, perhaps more plausible, option.

[QUOTE=Mara;4024496]

This is going to sound harsh, but if I were to log on to the Blood-Horse site tomorrow and see that Unbridled’s Song had been pensioned due to suddenly becoming sterile, I’d be happy about it.[/QUOTE]

I’d be happy, too, because Ernie Paragallo would have so much less money to spend at the prison commissary.

[QUOTE=InWhyCee Redux;4024838]
I’d be happy, too, because Ernie Paragallo would have so much less money to spend at the prison commissary.[/QUOTE]

Excellent point.

[QUOTE=jennywho;4024611]
I think it goes back farther than UBS. Cahill Road, who is a full to Unbridled stands locally and you see the same traits in his offspring as the UBS, although not nearly as successful on the track obviously. The good ones are good, but we have not bred to him because he has so many with bad knees that never make it to the track.[/QUOTE]

I remember Cahill Road as a 2 year old. As I remember he did not make it to the Derby did he? I was very disappointed because I liked him a lot. He had an enormous stride as I recall. Didn’t he get retired very young due to an injury?
Pam

Unbridled’s Songs: “running on the edge of their physiology”

To me Unbridled’s Song and his produce perfectly exemplify what Larry Bramlage describes here, when talking about why racehorses will always break down (if we breed for speed):

We could race draft horses over most any surface, and their bones are strong enough it wouldn’t matter. But, the thoroughbred maintains only the minimum skeleton that is sufficient to carry them around the track. Excess skeleton is added weight and penalized the horse’s speed. So, the light skeleton is a speed advantage, unless it gets too light to carry its owner, and then it fails. This is why we will never eliminate injuries totally. Success is predicated on the fact that our athletes carry the minimum skeleton necessary. They run right on the edge of their physiology.

From a Talkin’ Horses transcript, found here: Talkin’ Horses with Equine Surgeon Dr. Larry Bramlage

As a result of the combination of characteristics of his forebears and luck in the genetic lottery, Unbridled’s Song get are very successful and thus very fragile. Unbridled’s Song is, actually, the result of “success” based on the way we’ve selected for breeding. It is no irony or accident that his offspring are both fragile and fast.

[QUOTE=hessy35;4024656]
They are only fragile becuase they are being raced at 2 when they are 17 hand plus horses that have a TON Of growing to do before their growth plates shut completely. Any horse that size should be started slowly in my opinon. He is a wonderful Stallion, but when you take his huge babies and make them train at a young age you are going to get horse that breaks down A LOT!!! That is just the reality of training a HUGE horse.[/QUOTE]

This is in direct contradiction to the findings of Dr. Larry Bramlage, “one of the best known and widely respected equine surgeons in the world” and chairman of the Grayson-Jockey Club Research Foundation’s Veterinary Advisory Committee.

Charge number one: The training and racing of 2-year-old Thoroughbreds is predisposing these horses to accelerated rates of injury and prematurely shortened careers.

This charge is leveled by some people in and out of the horse industry, especially people outside of racing. It is a very popular theme with animal welfare organizations that are ill informed on the topic of racing and the horse; it is also parroted frequently in the popular press.

To examine these data The Jockey Club Information Systems extracted one-year windows at five-year intervals, using the years 1975 through 2000 as data sets. Horses were divided into the categories “raced as two-year-olds” and “raced, but not as two-year-olds.” The data shows a definitive answer to this charge.

The first category of data examined was average starts per starter lifetime. The data shows that horses that raced as 2-year-olds raced many more times in their lifetime in each of the years examined when compared to horses that did not race until after their 2-year-old season. Some of these starts were made in the 2-year-old year for the horses that raced at 2, but the difference was more marked than the 2-year-old year alone would account for.

Average lifetime earnings per starter for horses that raced as 2-year-olds are almost twice the amount earned by horses that did not race as 2-year-olds.

Career average earnings per start for horses that raced as 2-year-olds exceeded average earnings per start for horses that did not race as 2-year-olds in every one of the years from 1975 to 2000 examined.

Lastly, the percent stakes winners in horses that raced as 2-year-olds is nearly three times higher than in horses that did not race until their 3-year-old year or later.

This data is definitive. It shows that horses that began racing as 2-year-olds are much more successful, have much longer careers, and, by extrapolation, show less predisposition to injury than horses that did not begin racing until their 3-year-old year. It is absolute on all the data sets that the training and racing of 2-year-old Thoroughbreds has no ill effect on the horses’ race-career longevity or quality. In fact, the data would indicate that the ability to make at least one start as a 2-year-old has a very strong positive affect on the longevity and success of a racehorse. This strong positive effect on the quality and quantity of performance would make it impossible to argue that these horses that race as 2-year-olds are compromised.

These data strongly support the physiologic premise that it is easier for a horse to adapt to training when training begins at the end of skeletal growth. Initiation of training at the end of growth takes advantage of the established blood supply and cell populations that are then converted from growth to the adaptation to training. It is much more difficult for a horse to adapt to training after the musculoskeletal system is allowed to atrophy at the end of growth because the bone formation support system that is still present in the adolescent horse must be re-created in the skeletally mature horse that initiates training.

from http://www.jockeyclub.com/roundtable_08.asp?section=11

See also
http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=10983

http://www.grayson-jockeyclub.org/resources/June%201997%20newsletter.pdf

[QUOTE=LaurieB;4024759]
I realize it’s easy to jump on a bandwagon and Unbridleds Song has become a rather fashionable online whipping boy lately but I find it hard to blame him for Old Fashioned problem–a slab fracture of his right knee. While the Unbridled line in general isn’t known for its soundness, knees are not usually where their issues present themselves.

Old Fashioned is out of a Meadowlake mare. Meadowlake himself had knee problems and made only three career starts. For those looking to cast blame somewhere, that’s another, perhaps more plausible, option.[/QUOTE]

I agree completely. I see more lower leg problems in the Unbridled Songs. Most of the offspring I see tend to be a little long in the back, longer/softer pasterns and quite a few toe in.

[QUOTE=Las Olas;4025280]
I agree completely. I see more lower leg problems in the Unbridled Songs. Most of the offspring I see tend to be a little long in the back, longer/softer pasterns and quite a few toe in.[/QUOTE]

Thanks Las Olas. There’s probably not much use in trying to apply logic to the situation when half the group is already heating up the tar, and the other half is fluffing up the feathers. :lol:

What are UBS’s stats for runners/foals, starts/runners etc? how do they compare?

[QUOTE=Las Olas;4025280]
I agree completely. I see more lower leg problems in the Unbridled Songs. Most of the offspring I see tend to be a little long in the back, longer/softer pasterns and quite a few toe in.[/QUOTE]

AND they are huge 17 plus hand horses!

[QUOTE=slvrblltday;4025165]
This is in direct contradiction to the findings of Dr. Larry Bramlage, “one of the best known and widely respected equine surgeons in the world” and chairman of the Grayson-Jockey Club Research Foundation’s Veterinary Advisory Committee.

from http://www.jockeyclub.com/roundtable_08.asp?section=11

See also
http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=10983

http://www.grayson-jockeyclub.org/resources/June%201997%20newsletter.pdf[/QUOTE]

If a horse is 17 hands at 2 years old there is NO WAY his bones are strong enough for training. I don’t care what kind of study shows that young horses do well in training at young agaes. I’m talking about size playing a factor in their future health, and it does. But I’m wasting my time… they’ll just keep right on running them anyway no matter what people say.

[QUOTE=hessy35;4025390]
AND they are huge 17 plus hand horses![/QUOTE]

That’s quite an exaggeration. It’s very rare to find a thoroughbred ‘17 hands plus!’. Unbridled’s Song offspring can be large, yes, but rarely over a true 16.1 and I have been around quite a few (thoroughbreds and specifically UBS offspring).

[QUOTE=Drvmb1ggl3;4025387]
What are UBS’s stats for runners/foals, starts/runners etc? how do they compare?[/QUOTE]

I looked this up a few months ago when Unbridled’s Song became “hot” - he gets about 75% runners from foals of racing age. That is within a percentage point of Storm Cat and AP Indy, and a few percentage points higher than Tiznow (and other popular stallions but I can’t remember exactly who). Basically, Unbridled’s Song is at the top of runners:foals

Unbridled’s Song gets just over 12 starts per runner, which is higher than the stallions already mentioned, most by several starts. That doesn’t sound particularly fragile to me.

Based on these data, I think there is some hysteria over Unbridled’s Song because Eight Belles and Old Fashioned suffered fractures in widely watched races.

I meant to add - this information is from Pedigree Query. :slight_smile: