Here’s my first horse, Here’s Suds, no longer living. Nice old pedigree with Black Toney, Whisk Broom, Bimelech and others.
http://www.pedigreequery.com/heres+suds
Here’s my current horse, Airborne, who is an oldenburg with a TB mother who is/was grand daughter of Secretariat. His father aint too shabby either, but he’s a Hanovarian.
Can anybody comment on this one?
Here’s my geldings pedigree. I’m not very knowledgable. What I can tell you is that we had a blast riding in that snow last night! Anybody have any experience with these names?
Well, since we are talking “old” let’s go back…I think this is exciting…
He has Fair Trial and Knight of the Garter - both by Son-in-Law by Dark Ronald - staples in the warmblood pedigrees.
Knight of the Garter sired Bright Cherry who was the dam of the greatest steeplechaser of all time - ARKLE '57…
P.S. The above post from me was re TBFan’s Marathon Wish.
Thanks Foxtrot
Thanks Foxtrot! I don’t know much about reading pedigree’s but find it interesting. I will say my gelding often gets mistaken for a warmblood. He is very solidly built. Here’s a photo taken this fall (2010) at the ripe old age of 26.
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-1/1138430/swan%20running.jpg
Very cute…and with 109 starts…they built him tough! According to pedigree query…his grand sire Lyhard was the longest lived TB sire at the time of his death in 2005 (age 36).
Long past time to consider soundness in our breeding decisions - The toughies are harder and harder to come by as precosity and speed are bred into the American speedster for the flat.
FoxTrots - agreed. My gelding is built so much differently than the younger TBs that I see come into our barn. He is very solid, a bit arthiritic but still ready to go!
[QUOTE=danceronice;5351437]
Inbreed to RaN, you get speed and you get shitty ankles that shatter like glass. Once in a pedgree, I don’t mind, twice I’m leery, any more in the first five you’d have to pay ME to take it. That’s a line that needs serious outcrossing.
ivy–ITA with WhiteCamry, it’s a crying shame Hurdle Rate’s a gelding! That’s a case where seeing RaN doesn’t worry me overmmuch as the horse isn’t horribly overloaded with him, NatD, and NorD. And Candy Stripes was a nice, nice sire.[/QUOTE]
Uh oh, everytime someone says something like this, some jerk (in this case me) jumps up and says but I have a sound horse with RAN all over the place :lol:
Take a look at Forgotten Cat’s pedigree (he retired this past Sept at 9 and he’s sound, sound sound)
I do not think anyone is saying they are all lame or unsound but the numbers are there with a vast majority that have issues…Would you buy an Unbridled Song baby? A lot of people would but I wouldn’t…to many have had breakdowns and other issues…This is opinion not just based on fact, that’s what people ask for…
I also like to see other horses that are not only bred with ND, RaN, Storm Cat, Mr. Prospector…new blood would be good…Maybe some European blood or South American…JMHO
[QUOTE=ivy62;5357276]
I do not think anyone is saying they are all lame or unsound but the numbers are there with a vast majority that have issues.[/QUOTE]
Could you post those numbers please?
Would you buy an Unbridled Song baby? A lot of people would but I wouldn’t…to many have had breakdowns and other issues…This is opinion not just based on fact, that’s what people ask for…
Based on what facts? By facts do you mean numbers? I would hope so, and maybe you would be so kind as to post them and not just trot out a few high profile names.
I could not give you hard facts but for years it has been a subject that has be discussed, at least from what I have been told. Like, would you buy a horse that was by Reviewer? and especially if it was out of Shenanigans? Yes, one horse brokedown that we know of but he was soft in the bone many times over…and passed it on…broke several of his own! more then once.
I guess the word of mouth does not count. I still would like to see a BIGGER variety of stallions and not the same old few lines all over the place. Wish some of the European mares would be bought and shipped here…That would be easier then shipping one there and trying to bring it back bred or buying a nice stallion and transporting it.
[QUOTE=ivy62;5357276]
I do not think anyone is saying they are all lame or unsound but the numbers are there with a vast majority that have issues…Would you buy an Unbridled Song baby? A lot of people would but I wouldn’t…to many have had breakdowns and other issues…This is opinion not just based on fact, that’s what people ask for…
I also like to see other horses that are not only bred with ND, RaN, Storm Cat, Mr. Prospector…new blood would be good…Maybe some European blood or South American…JMHO[/QUOTE]
I wasn’t suggesting that anyone was saying they’re all lame nor was I trying to say that RAN inbreeding doesn’t have any issues, but there are always exception to every rule. I’m not sure where the numbers you mentioned are; I haven’t found any published stats on each stallion’s gets’ breakdowns. I’ve only found stats on # of foals and # of starters, and then you get into stakes winners, etc.)
Forgotten Cat’s a true war horse, winning about $250,000 in a long career that ended at Finger Lakes. Danceronice was among those who was very pleased to see this horse end up in a good home, RAN or no RAN.
While Forgotten Cat is a horse I have who represents an exception to the “rule”, I have another horse who typifies the ND and Native Dancer cross. This horse has ND and Native D twice four generations back and was lame by the time he was 11. Before I bought him it was clear he would not be a sound horse for long but there was no way I wasn’t taking him home. He was and still is the horse of my lifetime even though he was only sound to ride for the first three years I had him. He has a home with us until he lets us know it’s time to go.
I get into my horses’ pedigrees as much as the next person, but unless I have plans to breed, the horse’s pedigree is not the greatest factor contributing to my decision to buy a horse. First I buy the individual and then I get into the pedigree and dream that I own a piece of history.
I have a mare I’m breeding in 2012 and like you, I wish we had a little more diversity in bloodlines. I’ve had to think outside of the box to find a suitable mate for herso that I don’t end up crossing a bunch of American high profile stallions and some crappy ones too. But I found a stallion and I think it will be a good cross.
So there’s my thinking… the issues related to pedigree depend upon context
There are exceptions, but the problem comes in when you try to find someone to outcross that exception to! (And me, no, wouldn’t touch an Unbridled’s Song myself.) And some, even if the individual is good, if breeding’s a concern and their bloodline is common as crabgrass (as RaN has become) I’d say pass.
Obviously geldings aren’t a risk to pass bad/overused lines on, so the individual is all that matters (and a good argument for OTTB buyers to get an older horse–a horse like Forgotten Cat, or my Lucky, I’m not worried about soundness. A three-year-old with a ton of RaN retiring? I’m suspicious.)
RedMare, my guy seems to be related to your bosses mare:
http://www.pedigreequery.com/mister+nobody
What does everyone know about Meadowlake’s offspring? I do want to add that my boy is mistaken for a warmblood as well and wears a size 2 shoes and a 82 blanket! (Farrier says what rock hard feet he has…)
Zenyatta has Raise a Native in her - just sayin’.
And she would be welcome to come and hang out in my barn any time.
[QUOTE=Foxtrot’s;5367272]
Zenyatta has Raise a Native in her - just sayin’.
And she would be welcome to come and hang out in my barn any time.[/QUOTE]
But wow, get an eyefull of that Forli. I never looked at him before. I love seeing a stout-looking guy like that; so many of them are big bodies with spindly legs. Pretty cool.
Of particular note is that his trainer, Burley Parke, declared that Raise a Native was " the fastest two-year-old I ever trained" and that his bowed tendon was the consequence of an accident, surmising he stepped into a hoofprint or a deep spot in the track, rather than the result of some inherent weakness. Park said, “His legs never gave us any trouble, nor showed any evidence of weakness.” 
The problem is not RaN himself. (He was probably sounder than some of the junk they’re breeding now.) It’s what happens when you start seeing him two, three, four times in a pedgiree. It does not do good things for their legs. It also does not appear to being doing anything good for their ability to run longer distances. 1 1/4 did not used to be a route race. Norther Dancer is another who is painfully overbred who was probably not an awful horse himself.
AS I SAID, I don’t say no to RaN once in the first five, especially on a horse who’s gone sound for a long racing career (otherwise I wouldn’t own Lucky, though I credit Lucky’s inability to run farther than 5/8 less to RaN being in there once than Olympia being in there 3 times–he outsprinted a Quarter Horse at 1/4 mile once, and is not going to be passing on distance genes.) But crossing on him over and over again has not done great things for the breed. When you start seeing a weakness (not only soundness but lack of stamina) you look for a common denominator and RaN is a big one.
Raise a Native aside - we as sporthorse breeders - are looking for elegance in looks, beautiful movement, staying power and jump with style…and fast does not necessarily produce that. GB and French breeding is always a good sign.
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