If you’d like to respond to me, stick to what I said to you not what I did or didn’t say to anyone else. That’s just a cheap dodge. You don’t have to respond to me at all but, forgive me, “what about heeeeeeer!?” doesn’t seem to be an actual attempt at dialogue.
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Could these personal remarks go out of the thread?
Not just you, but all of this ridiculous bickering between users that is directly personal to that person, not to the thread discussion.
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Please use direct messaging to argue, bicker, snipe & snark at other users.
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Better yet, go to your upper right avatar photo, click on it, click on your username, and select Preferences. Left side selection Users. Set annoying user on Ignore and “Forever”.
Thank you on behalf of everyone.
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I was calling out a personal remark, but sure. Sounds good.
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This reminds me of an experience I had as a kid. My lovely large pony just didn’t get into the game on XC… he’d do the water but nothing else on the first try. Fabulous show jumper but I just didn’t have the knowledge of how to get him to go, but I had the skill.
We went to a Pony Club camp in Wisconsin, and the instructor got on the pony. He rode the pony around the XC, in my short stirrup length, and only occasionally used the stick. When the trainer got off, pony had a solid idea of forward/jump.
It was a turning point for us, and that impromptu training ride paved the way for many years of success for both of us. I will never forget that experience. The trainer eventually became, and remains, one of my favorite instructors I’ve ever ridden with, and over the many following years I’ve learned so much from him. One of my favorites being to “let them be good” (shorthand for setting the horse up for success and then not nagging or preemptively riding for bad behavior that may not develop).
Trainer also cautioned me, when I was new into instructing, not to be too eager to get on a student’s horse, because you might inadvertently create a bigger issue. He explained that years ago when he got on my pony he KNEW he could improve pony, so he did. But you need to be 100% confident you can make a difference in one ride; a difference that makes the regular rider’s experience better, otherwise there’s little to no value. Better to teach the rider to ride the issues themselves.
Unfortunately, not every pro ride since then has been positive, and I’ve become extremely wary of letting/encouraging pros to sit on my horses.
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I know nothing about training horses for cross country, much less how to handle specific training problems like a drop into water.
But there are two things that stick out to me.
The first is that this is clearly ineffective, bad training. If the horse isn’t forward enough, that is a rider problem, not a horse problem. If the horse is afraid, beating them with something is not going to make them stop being afraid. It just forces the horse to react. Unless MT plans to have a grounds person chase this pair over every future cross country course, MT has not fixed anything. If the horse or the rider are overfaced by this drop, they should have taken a step back until they had the tools and confidence to complete the drop without needing to beat the horse with a switch to do it.
The other thing is this seems like extremely dangerous training. MT had no way of knowing how the horse would react. We’ve all seen the videos of horses completely over reacting/ flailing over a jump. You force a horse to react, they often do so with no thought to their own safety, much less their rider. MT doesn’t know this horse or this rider beyond what he saw during the clinic. The rider was a minor and probably even less likely to say no to someone like MT if she felt uncomfortable or afraid. I have been in that rider’s position before, though not in cross country. When I was being chased with a lounge whip, it was all I could do to stay on.
You train horses and riders by building confidence, not fear. I think the abusive part is not so much the instrument used (though it was abusive when he just started beating the horse with it), but it instrument’s effect. He could have been shooting blanks into the air behind the horse (so no physical contact being made) and probably gotten a similar terrified reaction from the horse. He accomplished nothing outside of terrifying the horse. That’s not training. That’s abuse.
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I really appreciate all of the posts; they make me think. And so many quotes come to mind.
“Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent.” ― Isaac Asimov
Or the time pressed. Or the perceived omnipotent. I think MT was seeking to git 'er done, and he figured he could that way. He wasn’t thinking in the fashion of taking the time to let the horse figure out resting was in the water.
“Experience is something you don’t get until just after you need it.” Stephen Wright
I learned over the years that clinicians have knowledge I want, but I must choose what knowledge I want. I have hidden my horse during clinics because of adversarial techniques, I have had to tell clinicians my horse needs to stop now. To get to the stand up for my horse place, I had to learn the hard way by riding other horses and getting in trouble.
Why do humans, and in this case, mostly women, choose to take clinics with strong competitors, most often male? Strong competitors have a completely different way of interacting with horses, they are much clearer about “go” and "stop.”. Mark Todd and Andrew Nicholson and Oliver Townend “love” their horses for what they can do for them. They want to get to the other side of obstacles. They are great at caring for their horses because they learn over time that horses break if they do not.
This rider of the grey mare is typical of many who are thinking they want to do something but are not certain. The horse is aware that the rider is tentative, so she is making decisions for both in order to stay safe. It takes a while to learn that maybe you are doing what you think you should, but not what you really want or feel prepared to do. As I often think when I see such a pair out at a clinic, that the pair needs more time to sort out their toolbox. A clinic should be a time that you show off your competence and get fresh eyes and maybe new exercises. A horse that is stopping at the water is not ready for a clinic with a tough clinician.
“If I have seen further, it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants.” Isaac Newton
The stories of an imperfect Ray Hunt. We are human. Does anyone deserve to be idolized, or do we take what they learn over a lifetime and see further and do better ourselves. I was a ten-year-old girl riding my beloved horse when I asked for help to get my horse out for a trail ride. We were lunge whipped over the obstacle I needed to cross by my mother. I have asked in tough situations for people I trust to back off the pressure and find another way, to be told if you won’t do it, I will find someone else who will.
“The master has failed more times than the beginner has even tried.” Stephen McCrane In the case of horses, this is truly misery for the horses.
“There but for the grace of God, go I.” John Bradford
It took years to come to grips with the path and choices I’ve made. And when I try to put different thoughts in the young people’s heads, when they don’t hear, and keep going in that direction I know is “wrong” I remember my own issues and the tolerant horses who let me learn at my own pace.
“He who is without sin, cast the first stone.” Jesus
I am sorry to the horses I failed over the years with my ignorance. All I can do is say that I know better now, so I’m doing better.
“If you don’t like something, change it. If you can’t change it, change your attitude.” Maya Angelou
I am blessed to live in a time that I can find other ways. That the knowledge base that exists allows me to find the way of connection with my horses that is different. From Linda Tellington Jones, Warwick Shiller, Masterson method, myofascial release, I have learned there are other ways. Competition, that human desire to show off one’s power, is how I came to get here. And it becomes harder to see competition as a path for me, because the connection continues to be the stronger motivator. How do we do both competition and connection in a way that inspires those first drawn by an image of glory?
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Fair enough. I was tired and irritated last night, and should not have posted anything. I apologize for my remarks.
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“The FEI is disappointed and alarmed by the images in the video,” a spokesman said.
“This is not acceptable behaviour and it goes against everything we stand for and the values we encourage and expect from all horsemen and horsewomen.
“Every individual in the equestrian community has a responsibility and a duty to safeguard and protect the horses in their care and embrace a zero-tolerance attitude when it comes to any form of equine abuse and mistreatment. Any violation of that important responsibility cannot be overlooked or condoned, and the FEI will investigate whenever sporting and training methods are in clear disregard of the health and welfare of our most valued partner, the horse.
“The foundations of our sport rest on our partnership with the horse, and it is up to all equestrians to uphold and respect this core principle in the pursuit of sport and leisure riding.”
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Me too. I had a trainer put an experienced rider on my horse and then use a lunge whip to get him to jump over a ditch. There was blood (noticed later hosing him off). I didn’t stop it.
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Because as students, children, and women, we have been taught not to trust ourselves because our ‘superiors’ or those with ‘great’ experience always know better. Our respect for teachers, clergy, and others in positions of authority, but those especially in position of endowing knowledge, is ingrained from day one. We are taught to accept instead of to question. When we do get up the courage to question we are shot down and left with self-doubt.
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Honestly, what you’ve said here about toys/prey drive is inexperienced dog people say about treats. And I say this for general information, not to pick on you personally. You were just the one to say it.
FWIW People who teach horses to jump with force-free methods use stations and targets.
As for bucking, I’d GLADLY trade a world in which horses buck and explode violently from pain, terror, and frustration for one in which there are a few more “whee” bucks. It would be a much safer world if horses knew “No” was an option.
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I think one of the biggest problems is that the negative reinforcement (pressure and release) methods that are used by most trainers are what is exclusively used and taught by most horse trainers. When a horse doesn’t respond, the pressure can escalate to what we see in the video (though to be clear, I am not opposed to pressure and release training when done properly, and I would really not call that appropriate pressure and release training)
Anyways, pressure/release and force based escalation is what we know and how we are taught. There are a lot less trainers using positive reinforcement. We only know what we know. And when we are taught the only way to get a horse to do something is by using force/pressure, we a lot of times didn’t/don’t know any better. And a lot of pro trainers are really disparaging about positive reinforcement training for some reason so many people really and truly believe you cant train a horse without forceful methods.
Fortunately with the internet, there are a lot more available resources for learning other methods. But I have personally learned the most (in general) about horse training with hands on methods. For me, that’s meant learning how to train a behavior using pressure and release and adapting it to positive reinforcement if that’s how I want to train it.
So in short, if you aren’t a self-starter who does a lot of research on their own time it would be hard to learn how to apply positive reinforcement in the horse world where the overwhelming majority of trainers are not using positive reinforcement.
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Let’s hope this is the “MeToo” movement of horse training.
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We all are guilty of not speaking up at one time or another in our lives when we see something very wrong. Think George Floyd as an extreme example. Sometimes we become so intimidated by fear of ridicule or peer pressure we simply freeze and regret our inaction for a long, long time.
I’m glad Chloe finally found her courage after two years to post the video. At least a light is being shown on this type of abuse now.
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Gardenie, that it is an amazing post - very insightful and profound. COTH should feature it as an article or blog entry.
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Thanks. I love eventing. I love horses. And I’m so fortunate to have seen horsemanship methods continue to improve over the years. There is always something to learn. “The good old days weren’t always good and tomorrow ain’t as bad as it seems.” Billy Joel
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One thing that also stood out to me on the video is that it wasn’t just the horse that didn’t want to go off the drop into water.
The rider didn’t want to do it,either. Not only was the rider was doing almost nothing that needed to be done, but to me it seemed that the rider was genuinely afraid that the horse would, in fact, go. Probably afraid of how the horse might launch, if she could ride it, and what would happen on the landing. With good reason, IMO.
Rider & horse were both green to the problem. This was what really needed to be addressed by a teacher/instructor/trainer.
So, I’m seeing a rider who wasn’t comfortable riding down-drops, nervous about surviving it. (I remember this being terrifying when I first tried it. From way up on the horse it looked like going off the high-dive for the first time.) On a horse who also doesn’t seem to know much about drops – horse also wondering about survival. The rider probably feeling the horse’s uncertainty in addition to her own. Adding to her fear that she doesn’t feel she has the experience or the seat to handle whatever happens. And feeling that there is a broad range of what could happen.
So, a situation where much basic skill and confidence-building was needed all around. Maybe better to learn on a more experienced horse, and the horse learning with a more confident rider. Not a small task to do properly, and not really the right time or place with other riders waiting.
But the clinician is anxious to get this done RIGHT NOW (my interpretation) and from experience no doubt knows that he can escalate and force both rider and horse down the drop, and everyone will live. So get the tree branch and do it. Quickly - escalate hard & fast, get it done.
Onlookers thinking that if MT does it, it must be ok. Or have no idea just what to say in this moment, to MT of all people. However uneasy they felt.
It was hard for everyone to wave off and find a different path forward. The clinician, the rider, the onlookers. The clinician could not concede that this needs to be deferred to another time when no one else is waiting. We don’t get to complete every challenge today. Of the others, no one was prepared, or even knew how, to stand up to an instructor of such stature.
One of the things we most need to prepare for in life is sometimes having to abruptly detour from the plan. Suddenly break the linear focus of the moment and defer an outcome in which we are invested. This is actually a high-pressure decision, because in that moment we tend to have tunnel-vision on the intended outcome. That’s being human.
One of the most valuable life lessons I was ever taught is that people generally are not able to realize and decide on sudden detours when under pressure, in the moment – unless they have earlier, consciously, prepared themselves for such a moment. Prepared thoughtfully at a time when there is no pressure. Either through formal training, or through personal time spent informally thinking about possible future situations. We will not automatically respond as we will later wish we had without advance preparation for such situations.
It’s a personal study, as it were. Asking ourselves in quiet moments “what kind of person do I want to be in this situation, or that situation?” What will I do, what will I say, if I see, for instance: I’m in a parking lot loading groceries and notice an incident of flagrant child abuse by a frustrated parent – or, see an obviously lost and panicky dog trying to cross a busy road – or, see a stranger-visitor at my workplace poking at a co-worker’s computer when the co-worker isn’t present – or, see a trainer or rider going overboard with physical pressure on a horse – etc.
It’s been pointed out that the flaw in the instruction “If you see something, say something” is that it doesn’t include the information most needed. Say what? To who? People need that information in order to act.
And they need to prepare for the possibility ahead of time, through thoughtful introspection at a time when the pressure it not on.
People need some standard words & phrases ready to go. And tips on a tone of voice and even body language to use them. And they also need some thoughts on what to say as follow-up, based on the response.
“Oh hey, that’s looking like a little much I think, could we do this another way and get better results?” Or “Hey I know that is really frustrating, but it looks like things are going a little overboard, you know? What else have you tried? Because I really think it’s time to try something else.”
Or even just “Hey! No no, we don’t do that here.”
Or “Hey! That’s not ok. I know that’s frustrating, but let’s address it a better way.”
Something that is comfortable for the personality of the person who is preparing to say it, at some future moment.
We need suggestions. If I see [fill in blank] , what words do I say, how do I say them, and to who?
And then what do I do next if the person ignores me, or if they snap angrily at me to mind my own business, or if they stop the abuse and say “ok, what should I be doing?”
When am I the one to speak up, and when do I run for a higher authority to act instead? And what if the higher authority doesn’t act and the abuse is continuing?
We all need help to prepare for these situations. And then hope we never need to use it! 
But the more we are around horses and horse people, the more likely that probably, someday, we will need to know how to intervene in a deteriorating horse-handling situation.
And even how to respond if someone says to us “hey don’t do that”.
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Years ago we did a number of pack trips with @OnAMission. We all worked our asses off to do it, and occasionally stuffed a recalcitrant 7th? 9th? Oh get IN THERE horse into the last spot on their huge stock trailer 
if you’ve been packing horses for 20 you’ve been looking for loose stock for 10. It’s a great joke among those of us willing to step out into the great outdoors. We’d ride and laugh and have the time of our lives…and we came up with “do you mind if I notice” a concern, a question, an I’m not sure. That preface made it plain your intent.
And that’s between just us girls, two women with 20+ years of trust and horses and life together between us. The men were fine, they didn’t notice **** lol.
Normal, non tightly bound peeps? I dunno. I don’t know if it’s realistic. We’ll see where this all goes, I think I read he lost his training license.
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No worries, and thanks! Hope you had a better day. I’m also chronically sleep deprived at the moment. Not a great place to be. 
If I could choose a super power at this point in my life it would be: sleeping soundly for 6-8 hours. 
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I don’t think his reaction was an appropriate response. At the same time it doesn’t appear to be severe abuse. Trainers sometimes make mistakes or do things that in hindsight probably wasn’t a good idea.
I had a horse severely beaten to go through water by his previous owner. He would see a puddle and shudder. I tried tying him during our lunch break near a creek and he danced and fussed the entire time because mentally he was distraught. He had severe ptsd. I’m certain they didn’t try to flag him into the water- I’m sure they whipped him repeatedly - far worse then what’s in that video. I tried asking him to go through puddles- he would rather smash through a tree or whatever brush is next to it. He did get better - if following another horse and I even managed to get him into that scary creek eventually. He actually liked the water once he was in it. It was just the fear of getting beaten and approaching the water that was problematic.
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