What do you expect to get out of riding in a clinic?

[RedHorses]

This is a spin off from the Mark Todd Cruelty thread in the Eventing forum. I was going to respond there but @gardenie 's post was halfway through over 270 and as no one else had said anything I thought it would be worth a separate thread of its own.

@gardenie

A clinic should be a time that you show off your competence and get fresh eyes and maybe new exercises

I disagree. I think a clinic is a time to get fresh eyes and new exercises to help with the problems you are having. Pretending competence/hiding issues is more likely to cause problems in a clinic setting as the hidden hole in training or rider skill could prompt the clinician to ask for more than the rider/horse can safely accomplish at that time.

Clinics are for learning, not showing off.

That said, the participants and clinicians should be looking for another series of steps to correcting the riders’ issues instead of the “silver bullet” instant fix. This is where the current instant gratification culture fails us.

For several years I was part of a show barn where the culture was change the bit to fix the problem if the problem was persistent and not responding quickly to training. It wasn’t just that barn, it was widespread through the discipline. The problem was usually the horse not responding quickly enough or getting too strong, and the “bigger bit” usually got the horse’s attention. For a while.

Instead of using that period of attention to the new bit and training the desired responses/sensitivity the problem was declared solved. Until the horse learned how to ignore the new bit.

At minimum there is a lost opportunity for learning if the bigger bit “patch” is applied right before a clinic. If that patch fails mid clinic in say, a cross country clinic, when the rider is attempting a new/tricky jump there could be serious injuries.

This is not all theoretical musings.

I have audited a clinic where one rider very clearly just wanted to show off to the clinician. The clinician tried to help the rider improve and eventually gave up and lectured the auditors (as a professor would teach a class) and asked the rider to do various movements to demonstrate his points. It was great for the auditors, but I still wonder what the rider got out of it.

I have also caught myself trying to fix/hide my issues in order to impress at an upcoming clinic. I stopped trying, shared my epiphany with the clinician and had a very productive clinic then and many times following. I got the exercises, worked through them to get the beginning of success, got an explanation of what to look for in success and how to deal with potential problems, and then how to progress to the next step.

…

What do you expect when you ride in a clinic? Why do/would you ride in a clinic? Do people you know ride in clinics for different reasons?

[Mouse_amp_Bay]

Honestly, I often use a clinic just as a way to give the horse time to soak in a new environment and learn how to learn under pressure. Shows are tricky. You’re in and out, you can’t really stay in the ring to fix it. Clinics are wonderful for allowing a horse to see a new area, look at new jumps, practice some new exercises and gain confidence in a new environment.

Caveat: To gain confidence in a new place, you often need to back track. Competently jumping 1.0m at home? I’m entering a level or two down in a clinic so I can make sure the new stuff is manageable and will result in a successful day.

Caveat #2: Your horse, your money, your responsibility. If it is too much, not going well, not within your training plan - just say no. Yes, I acknowledge that the clinician is the ‘expert’ … but I know my horse and their safety and well being is my #1. That can politely require me to bow out, as appropriate. In fairness, this has only happened once when a clinician decided my 18H giant should be able to canter down the quarter line, turn into the wall (i.e. 8 m? Circle) and then canter up the long side. Yeah, no. We can’t do that properly and I’m not killing his back or myself.

[Obsidian_Fire]

Clinics… can be hard. I wonder sometimes what the clinician thinks to accomplish with each rider. I agree with the ‘learn how to learn under pressure’ statement.
For me, I ride the horse I have that day and I would hope the clinician would teach the horse/rider in that moment rather than having an agenda of “we will do this or die”.
That said, of course I hope we show up with our best selves, and I hope we can start to touch on the next steps.
If my confidence is lacking or my horse is not going well, I want those things addressed!

I remember a couple clinics with BNT’s… one, insisted it was time to “kick it up a notch”. Horse flat refused. Clinician got on. Horse flat refused. They duked it out for an hour. Literally. Trainer got off. Next days lesson focused on what I had already told him horse was doing…
Second one, my first with my schoolmaster. He knew all the ropes, I did not so much. He could be real loosey goosey if you let him. When I asked if we could work on counter canter BNT looked at me like I was an idiot. But we did, and what do ya know? Everything got better. I got better because the harder the work the better I focus and ride. Horse got better cuz well, he had to. LOL. What irritated me was the clinician knew the horse was well schooled and able and she should have taken me “in hand” and helped me.
Point being, if the rider is uncertain, clinician needs to direct the lesson. Period. I hate it when they sit there and just let people wander around with a half-a$$ed effort to actually teach.

The very first clinic I ever audited was Erik Herbermann. To this day I remember some of what he taught. Others, I don’t remember a damn thing.

[Foxglove]

I no longer attend clinics. Over the years attending with my kiddos, myself as a rider, myself as an auditor, myself as an organizer, I have found all to be a waste of time and effort --with one exception. When I first considered mounted archery, I attended a clinic to see what it was about. That was time/money well spent as I decided it was something I wanted to pursue. I was also sold the “right” bow and given contacts for acquiring other items I needed. Further, my horse that I’d owned one month, turned out to be perfect for the sport. I always suggest anyone considering trying a brand new horse discipline to try a clinic first (audit or participate) to make sure that’s what you and your horse want to do. I actually had purchased a bow and made a quiver that were totally unsuitable for Mounted Archery --further, I’d spent six months practicing with that equipment --would have saved time and money to do the clinic first.

But back to why I no longer participate in clinics —1) the clinician (it seems to me) always works with the poorest riders more than the most skilled riders. Last clinic I participated in, I was asked to “show” various skills while the others watched. Again clinician started with the lowest skilled rider and worked his way to me. However, by the time he was ready to work with me, it was the end of each secession and he was tired, I was tired, and my horse was tired. In the three day clinic I learned exactly nothing. However, the clinician subsequently had me send videos to him of performances, and then has given very, very helpful suggestions after viewing each one. So I guess I got my money’s worth with that private review over the last two years.

2. the clinician focuses on things the participants should already know. The most recent clinic I attended (only $20 and included lunch --I was an auditor) had a clinician who spent the first morning of the ONE DAY clinic discussing history and dress and her own experience with the discipline. A brief, “I am Debbie Jones. I’ve done Dressage for 20 years reaching the Olympic level three times and have a gold metal,” will do. We don’t need to know you grew up wanting a pony, got one at age 10, etc. If I want to know the history of Dressage, I can look it up. As far as how one dresses for a show --again, be brief. Or make a hand out or give everyone a rule book . . .don’t discuss it ad nauseum and then spend way too much time talking about where to buy the clothes.

3. Participants (some of them) seem to have come to socialize more than learn. I have seen clinicians speak privately and publicly to participants making chit-chat while he/she tries to instruct. Again, taking up MY TIME while he/she disciplines “the class.” Geesh.

4. Finally, I can’t control who attends a clinic --generally there is one know-it-all who repeats what the clinician says. I’m doing transitions and the clinician says, “More half-halt,” As I ride past know-it-all she says, “Half-halt, Foxglove!” And then when secession is over, know-it-all says, “Really need to work on those half-halts, Foxglove.”

And so, I save my $$ and occasionally hire a clinician to come to my farm for solo lessons for just me --saves me time, and aggravation, and at the end of the day, I get more out of it. To off set cost, I usually let a few people know that the clinician is here and if they want to haul in and set up a time with him/her; welcomed to do so --AFTER my individual time is over.

[oldernewbie]

I have learned a couple things over 13 years of riding in dressage clinics.

I found it’s not much value to me to randomly ride with whoever is in town. I do much better with going to multiple clinics with the same person. Even better is what has happened in the last year - I’m riding with my regular instructor’s coach in clinics - so there’s a lot of consistency between what my regular instructor is doing and the clinician. The clinician is a fresh pair of eyes, shows on the big time circuit, so has had a lot of good suggestions for me that complement my instructor. Plus my instructor often watches to see what her coach has to say about the two of us.

Also, I try to be realistic - since I’m training 1st level, I need a clinician who is open to coaching someone at my level. Plus I have an “off breed” horse. I have honestly never had a problem with a clinician over either of those things, but I’m not going to kid myself and think Charlotte DuJardin wants to coach me either! Really not a good use of my lesson dollars to ride with someone waaaaaay above my level!

[Night_Flight]

Clinics are fantastic learning opportunities for those who go in with an open mind and wanting to learn. I especially love it when the clinician gives everyone homework at the end of the weekend to continue to progress with the issues that were worked upon.

It’s a great opportunity to get a fresh set of eyes on you and to pick up some new exercises. It’s also a fantastic way to work with someone very good who isn’t usually available in your area.

Before a clinic, the only things I would focus on would be to prepare a green horse to deal with an unknown environment or having more people around the arena so we don’t spend more valuable clinic time than necessary just working through green moments. On a more experienced horse, I just want to work through whatever the horse happens to be struggling with at the moment, and there’s zero point in trying to cover up those struggles when I’m paying for the clinician’s expertise.

Pre-Covid, I co-organized two clinics a year for several years. The riders who got the most out of our clinics were those who came with an open mind, were humble, and who were open with the clinician about their struggles. Those who came away with nothing were those who just wanted to post photos to show that they’d ridden with a grand prix rider, and whose coaches were coaching from the rail during the clinic to try to make their riders look better (yes, this happened with multiple coaches).

The worst I ever saw was a clinic given by a WEG winner, and the riders included national and provincial-level GP riders. The clinician asked the riders to practice riding at speed around one of the earlier courses, around 1.10m. One rider refused to go forward and when the clinician asked why, he said he was perfectly capable of riding forward but didn’t need to do it until the jumps were higher. The rider was clearly only there because he thought he could show off, and wasn’t there to learn at all.

I don’t remember exactly how the clinician responded to be able to repeat it here, but he did call out the rider on it and it was extremely satisfying to watch.

[atr]

I’m fortunate that I have a very, very good regular instructor nowadays, so I’ve pretty much whittled it down to 2 clinicians I am happy to ride with–both of whom my trainer rides with as well, so we are all trundling down the same path, trainer is sitting next to clinician during my ride, and we are solving problems, adding refinement or confirming whether it’s time to move on to the next thing.

I like to go and audit when I have the time. There is a barn nearby that brings in a lot of clinicians and I can choose which of them I get something out of watching. If I come away with a couple of nuggets, it’s been a worthwhile day.

When I was out in the wilderness and having a hard time finding good training, I would ride with more people, just because it was the closest I could get to decent instruction. Sometimes it was very helpful, however, I had several really worthless and expensive experiences in there.

I’m there to learn. A wise old friend said to me once “you aren’t at a clinic to show off what you know, you are there to discover what you don’t know.” I’m more than happy to say "I don’t know how to do that, please teach me!

[Libby2563]

I don’t clinic often. I think I get more out of 2-3+ lessons with my usual jumping (eventing) and dressage coaches than one much more expensive ride with a clinician. I’m really lucky to have excellent regular coaches though. When I do ride in or audit clinics I take notes to try maximizing the takeaways, but I’m still not sure I’d say I’ve learned something groundbreaking in a clinic. Some clinics are soooooo expensive too!

[Janet]

Clinics with more than 2 people in each session, I mostly hope to come home with some new exercises (for instance, the one thing I remember from one clinic with George Morris (20 + years ago) was an exercise that involved cantering over a pole on the ground with a steady rhythm).

Clinics with 1 or 2 people in a session I hope for new insights into problems my regular instructor and I are not making progress with (for instance I remember a clinic with Susan Graham White, also years ago, where she said I needed to ask for more, that my horse was capable of more than what I was asking for.) Or insights into problems I wasn’t aware of at the time (I remember a clinic with Ernest Dillon where we spent the whole session on getting and keeping my horse STRAIGHT to the jump. I knew she sometimes drifted, but I hadn’t realized how fundamental straightness was to jumping well.).

[beowulf]

I expect to get feedback with eyes unclouded by subjectivity. New exercises and “homework” to work on with my home trainer.

As much as we love our trainers they are familiar with us: sometimes that makes it difficult to deliver objective feedback. They also often have context that may make them less likely to be adventurous in pushing the envelope too.

I enter clinics at or below the level I’m showing depending on the horse. I agree clinics are expensive; I’m selective with who I clinic with in light of that. I tend to not push myself as much as I can, and clinics often serve as a good reminder of that for me.

[Gardenhorse]

I agree with the fresh (and more objective) set of eyes and new sets of exercises to work on. Also just hearing a different way of expressing something can be super helpful. Stupid example but I can’t think of a good one - something like hearing “toes up” instead of “heels down” can really be a lightbulb moment.

I wouldn’t go into a clinic expecting a magical fix for a long-standing problem (which I think was the rider’s issue in the MT clinic), but at least some progress or homework exercises towards fixing it. I audited a Tik Maynard clinic a few months ago and I thought he was very good about not trying to solve a problem in one go, but giving the rider tools for continuing to work on it on their own.

[lorilu]

I am very particular regarding who I clinic with. There are two trainers regularly here in Ocala that I ride with. Both have seen us over the course of a few years. Each has different solutions to issues, neither gives the pat “outside rein inside leg and half halt” answer for everything. This weekend I rode with one of them - and learned a new way to support/prevent Bravo from dropping his shoulders. In general, I thing one-of clinics are fairly worthless.

[SusanO]

I think the people that benefit most are those that are already good riders that go home and do the homework. Those that don’t go home and do the homework or ride or apply what they have learned don’t benefit as much. This is not to say they are slackers because some of them have inflexible jobs and do not have lights to ride during the short winter days.

I have been auditing clinics that have run on a monthly basis at a nearby farm. One rider came because she was having troubles with the two time changes. Clinician watches her, corrects some things in her riding and gets on the horse for a few minutes to see what she is feeling and gets the horse more rideable. It gets better for her after that and he sends her home with homework. She comes back a month later - nails the two’s and starts on the ones. Next day she gets seven ones in a row. Now she is a very good rider but that is a pretty impressive improvement in my eyes! So the clinic was certainly helpful for her.

I really like to audit, especially with good people. Even clinics that are not in my discipline - you can take away at least one good thing. I can come home and think about what was said and see how I can apply it to my problem child. Why did this work? What really are you teaching the horse when you do this? Sometimes it becomes an epiphany that you really didn’t expect from auditing.

[J-Lu]

I’ve done lots of clinics but not regular lessons in my life (in 4 states).

I’ve been lucky enough to ride with clinicians often connected to the trainers I’ve worked with somehow in multiple states. Weird. So the instruction really built upon what I knew.

I love riding in dressage clinics with people I know are good for my horse and me. Since these clinicians didn’t see you regularly, they are really fresh eyes on the whole picture. And have different approaches than a more regular trainer that are often complementary. I also enjoyed riding with S and international judges, which give a unique and accurate point of view. I regularly rode with one clinician dubbed “the Horse God” who I’d sometimes have ride my horse - he made the horse look so beautiful and could push the horse to the edge but never over the edge. Showed the horse what the horse could do. And he was so kind to the horse in doing this. Pre-Covid, I rode with a clinician from Germany who was fantastically effective. He rode my horse and showed me gears my horse had. These clinicians helped me alot and I learned much from them. In fact, the last clinician had a whole different set of exercises to set a horse up to be correct and I’d bring my laptop and watch the other rides taking notes.

That said, I’ve ridden with two Olympians who I wouldn’t ride with again. One rode my horse 4 days before Regional Championships and totally screwed up the tempi changes. I never was so close to asking a clinician to please get off my horse. I think that clinician was more interested in looking good to the crowd than being fair to my horse, who didn’t understand that person’s aids. That person’s tempi aids were very different than mine and clinician lost patience with my horse.

THAT said, in my lifetime experience, clinics are often fun days where you hang out with friends watching and talking with each other, filming each other, and have lunch or dinner with the clinician and can talk with them about things. I have learned so much taking clinics and have really enjoyed them. I don’t get to ride with riders or judges of that caliber every day.

THAT said, I’m pretty picky about clinicians. It’s very pricey.

[pony_baloney]

I’ve never ridden my own horse in a clinic, and haven’t participated in one for many many years. But I’m interested in rider biomechanics and would like to learn where my weaknesses are, improve during the clinic and have exercises to retain that at home. When I do better, my horse will do better, so I’m not interested in having someone else show me what my horse can do.

[rockonxox]

I’ve only ridden in a handful of clinics, but have audited a ton. My goal is to be a sponge and absorb information… and if I am having a certain problem my expectation is that the the clinician will have insight to help me and not just point out what I’m doing wrong. I don’t clinic to show off. I do it to learn and experience and get new tools for my toolbox! If I wanted to show off I’d go compete.

[J-Lu]

Oh, I hope you are OK with this reply. Horses tend to work at the lowest common denominator. Why work harder? I’ve learned that I can ask more from my horses and they can easily give it. I learned I’m a sucker!! “Oh, you can’t do that? OK, you can’t do that” and my horse says “hehehehe”. I mean, my horse only has to work 1 hour a day and then hang out and eat grass or hay the other 23 hours. I’ve loved having someone show me that “yeah, your horse actually can do this comfortably”. I’m such a sucker!

[Fiesta01]

@RedHorses

I disagree. I think a clinic is a time to get fresh eyes and new exercises to help with the problems you are having.

This. 100%. I don’t need help on things we can already do well. I need coping ideas for problem areas.

[Fiesta01]

@Mouse_amp_Bay

Your horse, your money, your responsibility. If it is too much, not going well, not within your training plan - just say no. Yes, I acknowledge that the clinician is the ‘expert’ … but I know my horse and their safety and well being is my #1.

Good for you! It is difficult to do but is the right thing.

Decades ago, in a dressage clinic with a BNT (and short-listed for that year’s Pan Am games), she wanted to hop on my mare (young, very sensitive OTTB). BNT proceeded to frazzle her completely. After 10 minutes, she wanted to push on with the exercise. I politely asked her to get off and excused myself.

I took my mare to a neighboring ring, put her in a soft, longish contact, and proceeded to do big loopy serpentines. It took me 20 minutes to relax her and calm her down.

Nothing comes before the well-being of your horse.

[Fiesta01]

@Foxglove

I no longer attend clinics.

I tried enough clinicians that I found the perfect fit for me and my horse. She had taken her TBs from babies to Grand Prix at Devon. Some dressage clinicians just aren’t that in touch with bringing a TB along.

I would trailer to whatever farm where she was clinicing about every 6 weeks. In between time, if I had a problem, I could call her and she would offer some exercises to work on before I saw her next. It worked great for me and my mare. But I was always an independent-type rider. I wouldn’t do well in a training barn situation. At all.

ETA: But maybe, since I always took a private session, at that point she wasn’t considered a clinician for me, just my regular trainer that I met off-site?