Open Discussion

[Anne_FS]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Good to go:
So Erin where are you?? I think enough is enough with this topic…<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh for heaven’s sake! The topic moved away almost immediately from SS to generalities. It would be more appropriate to give this thread a new title but it seems to me there’s a worse prejudice in shutting up mention of sexuality . Did you ever think that there are those on the list who are gay who would rejoice in good news about someone else without all the uptight straight people jumping in saying ‘no, no, we can’t have that here; we shouldn’t be talking about this.’ That shows fear of the subject in my mind. Anti-gay prejudice in the horseworld or the rest of the world is not conquered by stifling any mention of being gay. We’ll be over the prejudice when nobody cares, but we’re on the way to getting over it when we can say, yes, I’m gay, or she’s gay, or he’s gay, and it’s received like, oh, okay, no big deal, which is the sense I got from the last thread.

Anne (who’s ex is gay and has found that there is less prejudice in the people who ask a direct question than in those who run around saying don’t ask, don’t tell). Just my opinion.

[Bertie]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pat:
who else thinks Americans can better handle an interracial couple over a homosexual one? Does it mean it’s simply a matter of time?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It’s too bad that that’s a valid question. It’s unfortunate that these are concerns in this society. Are other societies as judgmental about personal relationships and lifestyles?

[Retrophish]

What about marriages between man and women that dont result in children? My boss and I were actually talking about this the other day after he read a super interesting article in one of his professional journals. The article was very scientific in discussing what really is a male and a female in terms of same sex marriages. All that xy, xx, xxy,xxyy…

Anyway, for each argument he posed for why same sex marriages shouldnt be allowed - I was able to illustrate the same example in “legal” marriages.

For example, he said, All sorts of folks could just pair up for different financial benefits. Oh yeah, never see that in hetero marriages - wasnt that the basis of the “marriage” thread.

Then he went for the kid thing - not only are there straights that cant, wont have kids, but then there are the Melissa Etheridge, Jodi Fosters that seem to be doing ok.

I have to agree, Jair, if two people want to be together, no matter the perceived advantages, I think it should be an equitable right. I frankly cant see how anyone can believe different. Each person is free to make thier marriage as sacred or business like as they want, like religion. I think the marriage laws are an example of their not being a separation of church and state. I think.

[Retrophish]

I think religion scares me even more then the intolerant ways that people label and treat each other.

I by no means am very knowledgable about the topic of discussion and I think I am only a little more versed in religion. I cant help thinking that it has been in the name of religion that many people are hurt for thousands of different reasons. With that said, it would be unwise for me to attempt to communicate the many confusing contradictions of religion. I respect and envy anyone that is able to come to peace by accepting which ever religious credo and I suppose that part of my confusion comes from believing many parts of a lot of different and even conflicting ones. The way I see it, there is too much human interpretation involved in religion - why would a tolerant god make make loving another person conditional? There are huge holes in these thoughts so dont crucify me (little play on word there)

Getting back to the topic on hand. Cant explain the twin thing except to say that there are many different genes that are expressed at different leves for different characteristics and of course there is the environment.

Do you think that part of societies lack of acceptance comes from the very basic (learned) instinct to procreate and continue the species? Humans have moved beyond hunting, gathering and breeding but some of our thought patterns are stuck. Logically, with our degree of development, it isnt necessary for all people to replace themselves with another. Our survival rate is better then the cave man times. I think if you look at patterns of nature (argument everyone uses to justify something as being “right”) there are plenty of species where different roles are carried out by different members and not everyone produces offspring. Am I making sense? Trying to explain why this argument for being against homosexuality is flawed.

If we were to extend this type argument to my need to care for horses (rather then a food producing item) - it would stand that it is a pretty insignificant role, yet it is the very core of my existance. I think that root of our existance and the reason we are here is to LOVE - and it is achieved in many ways.

Whew, enough of that. Sorry for getting carried away. felt like I was on to something but Im not quite there yet. need some more thought (and tequila for added stimulation!)

[Jair]

Oh Moesha! You have brought up the saddest topic of all time - Matthew Shephard. Hearing about him was probably the only time something on the news made me cry - still feel like it whenever I see a picture of him. He was so young and just because of someone’s bigotry and fear, he never got to experience life - let alone love.

Pwynn - I never hear about anything in WV which isn’t surprising since when was the last time you heard anything about my city on the news down there? But you brought up a good point - it is too easy to assume that just because a murder/crime victim is gay that the death/incident was a result of that person’s sexuality. Although there have been many many hate crimes against us (including one here a few months ago) terrible things can happen to anyone, regardless of race, religioun, sexuality, ethnicity etc. Lets face it, some people don’t deserve to be considered “human”.

and gay men can be evil too - just look at the Talented Mr. Ripley! (why you would ever want to knock of Jude Law is beyond me! ) Apparently some factions in the gay community wanted the film seriously edited as they didn’t wasnt a gay character to be a sociopath as well. Felt it “fuel the fires” against them so to speak.

Duffy - am still working on my uncle for you. Will keep you posted.

Hi PacificSolo! Thanks for the new computer offer - might take you up on that one day!! LOL. I am at the library again (its raining and my partner wanted to look for a book - so I had a good excuse to come on line!).

[ccoronios]

It wonders me how people can accept a literal interpretation of the Bible. No flames, please - and I realize how little religion and logic have in common, but…given that, please follow my line of reasoning here…

“Stories” of the Bible come anywhere from close to 2000 years ago to thousands of years before that. (“Stories” to indicate lack of better word, and NOT implying fiction) Many originated and were handed down for generations as word-of-mouth - legends, tales of heroism, much the same as other mythology - by people who could not read and write (most Old Testament pre-dates written word.) So part of the Bible: a. isn’t Christian and b. isn’t clear recollection.

Let’s say that MML&J were completely objective and had digital memories - that everything in those 4 Gospels was written down exactly as it happened/was said. In what language? (can we agree that it wasn’t 20th c. American/English?) Who translated it? How many times has it been translated between then and now? And who chose which word to use when there wasn’t an exact translation?

I was raised Episcopalian, attended a variety of churches (Presbyterian, Lutheran, Catholic); I believe in God (ONE GOD, that cares equally for all S/He created) and I don’t understand those who believe that if my beliefs are different from their own, mine are wrong. To quote my Christmas cards of the past few years (I really like them, so I bought all I could find!) “God created so many different kinds of people…why would he allow only one way to worship Him?”

Wow - is this far off the topic of h/j or what!!!?!!?

[Anne_FS]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ponygyrl:
[But I still don’t know where all the lesbians are - esp since so many women with horses have sensible hair, look other women in the eye when conversing, and kick butt with basic physical labor competencies - all tendencies I learned long ago to associate with lesbians. So much for my alleged gaydar. [/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL!!! That is SOOOO funny, ponygrl and is a lesson for all. Prejudice stinks no matter where it is. The horse world has been one of the few places where a woman (not a ‘strong’ woman, but a woman d**mmit)can be herself, not play games, just be her own forthright, strong self and not be labelled by insecure others as gay or anti-male or a **itch. Because I am just myself, a strong PERSON who happens to be female, I fit very well in the horse world. My ex, who is gay, when he is angry with me likes to imply that the horse world women are all gay because of the very things ponygrl said, and therefore what is that saying about me??? Oh, please. Some people are so clueless about females. Sorry, pal, we’re just women, gay and straight and bi and having a blast and to us IT DOESN’T MATTER what the others of us are. We can all be friends and admirers of each other. He thinks since I’m straight these implications will hurt me and my daughter - NOT! Real women understand that there’s room for the dainty feminine types, the curvaceous bombshells, the stick-figured, the stocky, the plain, the pretty, the strong; long hair, ‘sensible’ hair, no hair - women come in all shapes and sizes and don’t accept the stereotypes that if we look one way or another our sexual orientation must therefore be one way or another. What does it matter if she can ride, can train, takes good care of her horses? I don’t need to fit in anyone’s box or be what they think a woman should be. I am a woman - get over it. Same goes for the guys: they come in all styles, too. In our world it should be the horsemanship that counts, and I think the horse world has done better than most others in letting that be the final judge of a person’s worth and we should all be mighty proud of that.

[Anne_FS]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jair:
[B]
I think this is a great quote:

“Successful life forms are characterized by diversity, so changing environments don’t wipe them out. That diversity often extends to sexuality. Thus bisexuality and homosexuality are characteristics not of twisted nature, but of generous nature” (SALON | March 15, 1999 )
[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Uh, that quote doesn’t make sense and defeats the pro-gay argument. The biological definition of a successful organism is one that survives long enough to reproduce. The diversity is supposed to lead towards obtaining that goal, which homosexuality does not. If a population diversifies into homosexuality, it will indeed be wiped out and only its members who practice heterosexuality will pass on their genes instead. Nice try, whoever wrote that, but it doesn’t make sense. There must be a better quote than this.

[Snowbird]

Think of the analogy of the Garden of Eden, Eve gave Adam the apple from the tree of “Knowledge”. Once consumed knowledge changed them. They were no longer innocent and they were capable of free choice.

So, perhaps are differences are that simple. There are those who seek absolute innocence. For them that would be a solution and it gives them strength and resolution. There are those of us restless souls that enjoy and seek knowledge. By the standards of those who seek innocence we are sinners.

Does the historical Jesus match the spiritual Jesus? Do we need to know if the Bible as a book of history is true? Should we keep the innocence of childhood where it doesn’t matter?

The point is we all have our place on the patchwork quilt. I can respect Pacificsolo, I can like Pacificsolo and we might even be friends, but to do this must we agree. There are many great and brilliant people who question whether certain parts of the story should have been left out of the Bible.

I met a moslim several years ago in the middle east, and he solved two questions for me that I never understood. He from his background had no difficulties, life was very cut and dried and simple.

Why did they rob the tombs of the Pharoahs? No treasure has been found, no artifacts on the open market and it was a part of their religion. He answered very straight forwardedly what I can understand. They just wanted that Pharoah to go into the hereafter as poor as they were (part of their religion). They didn’t steal from him they threw it in the Nile it was not for personal gain.

He saw the Nation of Islam as the result of a simple sibling rivalry. If Sarah could have been more compassionate and not sent Ishmael into the desert to get his mother and him away from Abraham there might not have been a Nation of Islam. They might all have been Jews. Jesus was born lived and died as a Jew, are you so sure that if he came back it would not be as a Jew?

The point is that the same history is viewed from different perspectives. There was an island off shore from the middle east somewhere I’m not sure where. It was excavated by archeologists. They discovered that at one time is this desert area it was a green lush island. They also discovered the per square foot there were an extrodinary number of graves. They also discovered that translated the island was called “Paradise”.

Could it be that in those days to go to Paradise after you died was that simple? We don’t know. But yes faith is simple and uncomplicated and innocent is that wrong? I don’t think so.

There is strong evidence that we all started from Africa as black people. That some mutated and were pale and therefore ostrocized out of the community. Their light skin was better suited to the cold climates and they survived. Who is there can say which is better? There is room for all of us.

The questioners are the most persecuted because they have no faith. That doesn’t make them evil.

Pacificsolo, I not only respect your beliefs but I envy you your conviction versus all my doubts and questions. Homosexuality is a form of life whether chosen or born. All life should be respected as a miracle. Jesus surrounded himself with the poor, hopeless, the sick and the dying, the tax collector (no more hated human at that time) and the prostitute.I think what the Bible taught me was that all life, even that of the sparrow matters to God. If it matters to God it should be respected. If a sparrow is important then surely every person whatever their flaws (in your opinion) is worth the same love. Since God is perfect and does not make mistakes then there must be a reason why the Homosexual is important for us. The Bi-Sexual is important for us and those born as both sexes are important for us.

Now, we can get into the whole issue is God a Male or a Female? Is God Black or White or Brown or Yellow or Red?

[Retrophish]

There was so much thought provoking dialog from over the weekend that I think I need to print this thread and spend a few days in the library and try to see if it is possible to sort all this out.

Not being extremely religious myself, I cant comment with any real expertise, only my own thoughts that I formed over the last 30 years or so. One thing that I think has been expressed is that maybe it isnt our place to understand everything, we should just except it. I too, agree with Snowbird, quoted below:

Pacificsolo, I not only respect your beliefs but I envy you for your conviction versus all my doubts and questions.

To imply that your faith might be childish seems complimentary to me. I cant think of a time when life was more satisfying, simple, and pure then childhood. If I could go back, I would in a second.

For me, it makes the most sense that there is one god made up of all the religions. I cant conceive that a God who made us what we are, in all our diversity and unlimited abilities would then limit us in such a way and give us minds to question, but never to find solutions. PacificsoloIm wondering how peaceful you feel with your friendships with those of other religions when you know they will not real eternal salvation at the gates of “heaven”. Were I to believe that, I would be saddened - just as I am to see friends smoking or drugging. I KNOW it is harmful for them and I love them so much it hurts to see them damaging themselves. If I were to believe that only those of my faith were saved and bound for greater things, I would be tortured to see those I love committing eternal suicide. If you truly believe (which I am not questioning) how do you justify accepting this doom of others?

I have yet another question for anyone more familiar with history then myself. Is it not correct that gay and lesbian behavior was acceptable AD? The Greeks, the Romans, and the other Helenistic societies that predate the catholic religion. Im trying to bring up the teachings of my History of Ancient Civilizations class, but am not doing too well. However I do remember a great poet for which the term Lesbian comes from and the island of Lesbos. Wasnt that pre-Christ? Depending upon the answers, seems to me, any acceptance of sexual diversity was wiped away by the forthcoming religions that somehow deemed it improper. So, what (in the religious aspect of eternal life) happened to all the “unsaved” people that were around before Christ and/or conventional religions?

Jair
Hey Retrophish - should the world need to call on me - hope they pair me with you!

Are you flirting with me?? I truly did laugh out loud because I just know you are so cute that I would regret that you are gay as much as I regret when some great guy has a most beautiful girlfreind and one of those unbreakable relationships. (not to mention I am faithfully married) Plus, I’m a great breeder with spectacular kids (not all my doing of course) Were I to have your email, I would have saved these more lurid details for a personal conversation. One point that does come to mind in rereading what I have written is that there could/should/needs to be equal tolerance by the gay community for the straight. Often,comments like “too bad he’s gay” or “what a waste that he’s gay” is taken as some sort of insult and really should be taken as lightly as “too bad he has a girlfriend” or “such a waist he’s dating HER”. (and vice versa of course)

Bertie Thank you for sharing your story. I am sorry for the loss of your brother. It sounds as if he must have been a good communicator judging by the fact that his ex-wife understood him and remained a friend. She as well is a model.

AIDS is another whole topic, and a frightful one at that. There isn’t a person out there who hasn’t felt the effects of this terrible disease. In a positive light though, I am thankful that it is helping everyone understand that they shouldnt be flip with any relationship they get into, no matter what type. Communication and trust have always been essential in relationships, but in this day and age, it is even more evident why. And that is a good thing, just wish there could be a better way then AIDS for the example of why.

[pwynnnorman]

Live and let live–and anyone who thinks otherwise, IMO, needs to get a life.

I dunno, Jair, about the gays and horses thing, and I don’t know if the following is relevant, but…

Has anyone noticed how a lot of horsepeople have a love of music? (At one point, I kept running into horse people who play the flute, just like me.) And there are other things I’ve found which seems to “go” with horse interests…but for some reason I can’t quite think of any right now! Anybody else?

Oh, in h-j-d-ct (not western): liberalism rather than conservatism. Think so?

[Snowbird]

the book “Holy Grail” that I’m referring to is a documentary. Traces the paper trail all the way back and puts it in perspective re: Solomon’s Gold and what happened to it? And the moving forces behind the Templar Knights of today.

Camp David is a retreat for all Presidents near Washington. It’s supposed to be a place where they can go, and the media can’t follow for some privacy.

[pwynnnorman]

But isn’t it equally steotypical to state that gay guys are “feminine”? There are masculine homosexual men out there, too, right? Or are you saying that the more “sensitive” ones (and I don’t know about that either: I’ve known at least two guys of that persuasion who were as “sensitive” as a slug) prefer English sports for the same reasons that women do?

I’d be interested to know the statistics, actually, because I think we are generalizing based on limited personal observation. I suspect the real numbers wouldn’t support our speculations.

[Weatherford]

I, too, would like to thank all of you for the absolutely fascinating and refreshing thread! I am touched beyond words by your honest thoughts, compassion, observations, and faith.

This is why I continue to be part of these boards - even as other thread crash and burn, require divine intervention (Erin…), etc!

Thanks again.

W.

[pwynnnorman]

All this is fine and dandy, but I STILL don’t think that guy should stroll around naked on Survivor…

[Note: I’m being intentionally irrelevant.]

[diane]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kryswyn:

Dehner vs. Vogel - Konings
Mane pulling vs. GroomaSolo Comb - pulling
1st & 3rd billets vs. 2nd & 3rd - 1st & 3rd
Jack Russell vs. Corgi - we have both
Corgi (Pembroke) vs. Corgi (Cardigan) - Pembroke
Tailored Sportsman vs. Millers CR-7 - TS or Pikuer
Appaloosas vs. Anything - Anything
Chocolate vs. Vanilla - Chocolate
and finally, the longest lasting argument ever to appear in Ann Landers column,
Toilet Paper: Fall OVERthe roll vs. Hang UNDER the roll. Over

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This topic has been wonderful,

[Snowbird]

I think we should also have in the mix that homosexuality is not the same as a mistaken gender indentity. If you look around the most beautiful fit of either sex may prefer someone equally beautiful and fit. That is the males prefer males that are very masculine. I think the concept of those who have a feminine aspect are just a part of the picture. The same seems to me to be true for those who are female.Then there are those who have a gender problem of indentifying themselves. Males who would have a feminine identity, females with a male identity and then there are all the variations of birth flaws where boys are really girls and vice versa along with some who are both.

Obviously, the pattern of nature is not perfectly limited. We are intellectually limited to believe that there is only one “normal” condition and only one acceptable life style, that does not make it so. I think in history many ancient civilizations were more tolerant and respectful of each other.

We need to all consider that we are limited by our own experiences, preferences and environment to believe that what is right “is right”.

[Pepper]

Retrophish, perhaps the perception that gays have an easier row to hoe in the English equestrian world stems from the fact that people tend to remember gayness, not straightness. Sexual orientation tops the list of characteristics we use to describe a person only when they are gay, not when they are straight.

[Kryswyn]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pat:
who else thinks Americans can better handle an interracial couple over a homosexual one? Does it mean it’s simply a matter of time?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes. When I was little (60’s) black/white dating NOT an option; it was a daring movie of the week in the early 70’s, it was something adults clammed up about when little ones walked in. Trust me, they were NOT talking positively about this. Now, NBD. It takes time, lots of it, to overcome stereotype and bigotry.

Again, in the 60’s men weren’t ‘gay’ they were ‘queer’ and ‘queer’= flamboyant queen and all lesbians were butch or bull dykes and we all knew what they looked like. The idea of a “macho” gay was unknown by many until Patricia Nell Warren’s wonderful book “The Front Runner” (Jair- you HAVE read this right?) published in 1974/5? This is a movie Hollywood STILL hasn’t made although it’s been greenlighted at least 2x that I know of. This being an Olympic year, it should’ve been pushed through production, but again, the relationship between a track coach & his Olympic caliber runner is deemed too sensational for release. So IMHO you and your BF are definitely reaping the harvest that was watered by millions of tears. Acceptance for gays and lesbians comes slowly but it WILL come.

Personal note to anyone who hasn’t told their family. My cousin came out at Thanksgiving in a long distance call to the family get-together (Gloria was out of town). She THOUGHT she was talking only to her cousin, but unknown to her mom & aunt had picked up the extentions. Needless to say, it was QUITE the topic of conversation afterwards, and having all those different points of view being expressed all at once allowed everyone to vent, be supported, be educated, and while I recall the turkey hitting the table an hour or so late, we left that night with the majority of bigotry behind us and resigned acceptance reigned.

[Erin]

The “marry rich” thread must have been deleted by the person who started it, because neither Weatherford or I did. We’ll always tell you if we delete something, so if you don’t see an explanation from us, just assume the person who started the thread deleted their initial post.