Open Discussion

[Inverness]

I’m very interested in hearing more about the religious taboos to homosexuality. PacificSolo and Snowbird - you’ve both piqued my interest. I’ve heard others state that homosexuality is condemned in the Bible, but I’ve never been satisfied with the interpretive arguments purporting to substantiate this assertion.

I also should note that I’ve never been a proponent of literal translation in any vein, whether it concerns religious literature or the U.S. Constitution. I’m also not a religious person (raised Catholic, but balancing on the abyss of atheism) but I’m fascinated by religious history.

On another front, I’ve also read that there are documented instances of homosexual behavior in various animal species. I cannot vouch for the accuracy of this theory/fact(?), but I know I have heard it frequently espoused. In addition, there seems to be some fairly strong evidence coming to light that homosexuality (and likewise, heterosexuality)is genetically determined.

It would appear, therefore, that the only thing “unnatural” about homosexuality is society’s condemnation of it. It is an exercize in futility to oppose things that just are.

[starlady]

The “should I marry for money” thread had it
all wrong. If you’ve ever read bumper stickers in Los Angeles you’ve seen: “I didn’t marry for money–I DIVORCED for it!”.

[Retrophish]

I agree with what you are saying, Pepper, but if having some sort of explanation helps even one more person learn tolerance, then I think it is ok. Knowing the why helps for some. Like, I think it was Jair said, that which we dont know scares us.

I remember in college (forget the class) we were learning how the peace corps or some such org. was in an over populated area of India trying to make the women take birth control pills. They tried all sorts of different methods from bribery to trickery. Finally, they instituted an education program where they showed the families that it was no longer necessary to have 10 kids to ensure the survival of at least two. They taught them how medicine and nutrition has improved the chances of survival and actually overpopulating themselves was more harmful then helpful. The result - voluntary acceptance of controlled births and reduced populations.

If we extend your argument that people just are, we could say that mean people just are too. Some things - I agree just are and some are a result of something else, but most are probably a combination of both.

[Pepper]

Ponygrl, I sure liked your last post. The “where are the lesbians” question is sort of a head-scratcher, but personally that’s one of the things I love about riding. The traits many folks associate with the lesbian stereotype lend themselves to the horse world – physical strength, sensible hair/attire, tendency to face things head-on. Maybe lesbians blend in to the horse world because its the environment where their less-than-“feminine” traits don’t stand out, and are assets instead. It’s nice when such traits stand for competence, not just for sexual orientation and politics. The horse world is one place where women get to be themselves, without attracting labels for it, other than “horsewoman.”
Some of you may have seen an amusing anecdote that was published a couple months ago – I think it was the Chron, but I’m not certain. A local reporter covering a dressage show observed that men and women compete on equal footing in most equestrian sports. Indeed, it was noted, men and women riders wear the same clothes. The editor added a quip about busy changing rooms between rides.
This really is a special sport. In how many other sports could we look forward to seeing which women AND men will represent us on the Olympic team?

[Retrophish]

Correct me if Im wrong, but being gay doesnt mean that a person is not able to reproduce. They may not WANT to, but certainly they are capable of contributing their half. So, when our population starts to dwindle, we will have to call all homosexuals to come forth and do their part.

I like the quote and thought it quite clever.

[Policy_of_Truth]

Snowbird, I appreciate your kind words. I know that the way I express my thoughts sounds as if I have the faith of a child. I wish that were the truth. Actually, I was raised in a wonderful Christian home, but by the time I reached high school, I really had some doubts. I searched and searched, but not many things that I wanted to do were in sync with the Bible…so, I made a choice…I would trust in God to teach me how to know him…and he was faithful.
As far as sin goes, Christians believe that because of original sin, we must ALL be forgiven, and must all seek the face of God. I realize that without the theological background, it is very hard for those of you who are interested to understand why certain books of the Bible were not included, which are collectively called the Apocrapha…and as far as the story that was mentioned, the translation is not that they had sex, but that they did what any people would do who needed to keep warm…and for those of you who wonder why Christ didn’t miraculously create a warm home, perhaps you misunderstand his purpose on earth…he was and is the sacraficial lamb.
I am about as academic-minded as they come…and quite the skeptic, if I don’t keep my self in check. One of the most interesting areas of my faith is that of apologetics, which is basically a field that studies arguments for Christianity. To anyone who just wants to learn more, please try reading my favorite, “Mere Christianity” by C.S. Lewis. He was a skeptic, and began writing a book about the flaws of Christianity…then, something changed. It is a book that challenges the minds of anyone…
I live in a very high-tech area called the Research Triangle Park. I have in my church one of the most intelligent collections of doctors, professors, surgeons, engineers, and physicists. Not one of them has NOT struggled with the world-view of Christ. But, we all prayed for guidence and understanding, and we have all recieved it, no matter what.
I am glad that all of you are being so kind. Jair, your words earlier are very dear to me. Thank you for accepting me with my beliefs…I hope I am doing the same for you.
And by the way, you can add me to the list of singers, actors, painters et.al! And I wouldn’t have changed my experiences with the arts for NOTHING!!! And it does help me in my riding… oddly enough, I never had a gay trainer, but I had two older lesbians who owned a barn I rode at. Come to think of it, it never bothered me or my parents. Until now, I hadn’t seen them as such…I mean I knew they were together and were lovers, but I didn’t define them like that…anyway…

[Jair]

Funny, I had to print this whole thread out too, just to sort out everything that has been covered.

Ah the Greeks! Was considering bringing that up myself. Thanks for reminding me Retrophish. From what I’ve read, homosexuality was quite prevalent during the Greek/Roman empires albeit not in the way we think of someone being “gay” today. If you’ve ever read Plato or some other scholars from that time, they discuss “Boy-love” quite a bit, and how it was right and proper for an older man (30ish) to form a relationship with a young man (15-17ish) to help them become men. Physical intimacy is hinted at on some occasions and I once read something that even explained it as necessary since women HAD to be virgins back then, the boys had no one to uhmm “experiment” with. (Trying to be delicate here.) So that sort of liason wasn’t frowned on. That’s just an “in the nutshell” version. Will have to go home and read some of my books.

There was also a lot of homoerotic imagery to come from the Hellenistic/Greek socities which has always lead me to believe that they were more accepting/tolerant of male/male relationships. But then my Y2K perceptions are no doubtedly a bit skewed compared to what a Ancient greek would have been thinking - to them, there might not have been anyting to have been tolerant about - maybe homosexuality “just was”. Which is something we were discussing earlier.

Thank you Bertie, for sharing your story. I have definitely been down that road with friends - I felt for you when I read it. AIDS is such a horrible thing, dealing with it on any level is so often hard to express in words. (I think Robert Dover runs a charity for equestrians with AIDS - anyone know about that?

Retrophish - yes I was flirting with you! hee hee hee I don’t think your husband would mind though…

Good point about tolerance in the gay community towards straights. There is definitely some antagonism there in some people. Telling a gay man he is acting like “a straight” is quite an insult to some. Or refering to straight couples (the majority of couples ) as “breeders” can be meant either as derogatory or just matter of fact. Funny, I don’t understand that - if it hadn’t been for “breeders” I wouldn’t be here!!!

I’ve hear that “too bad he’s gay” many times! and for what’s its worth, I’ve thought the reverse about someone’s adorable husband before: “too bad he’s straight!” Depends on which side of the fence you’re on I guess. Although I hear my girlfriends say that about couples they see. “how come SHE got such a hotty? I’m just as/more than pretty…”

(PS Retrophish - you can email me if you want or anyone else who wants to discuss something they’d rather not on the BB “carebearjair@hotmail.com”.)

[This message has been edited by Jair (edited 07-17-2000).]

[Black_Market_Radio]

Pwynn, I play piano and guitar as well as sing, and my trainer has a gorgeous singing voice an dis teaching herself piano as well. I also know many other equestrians who play instruments. I eventually want to get a harpsicord…

[TabithaCat]

Pacificsolo, I most respectfully disagree with you that all sins are equal. Somehow, homosexuality, theft, and lying don’t seem to me on a par with raping and murdering a 5 year old. I am a Christian also, and this is not intended as an attack by any means.
While there are a couple of references to homosexuality in the Bible, there is far more emphasis on other things. Even if it is a sin (after all, we’re also commanded by Paul not to braid our hair, and parents are supposed to stone their children to death if they sass), it’s between that individual and God, not my business. As far as Sodom and Gomorrah goes, I still don’t see how Lot was a hero for offering his virgin daughters to be raped by the whole town, then later knocking them both up. sigh We are all imperfect people, in an imperfect world. I strive to do no harm to others, and to remain non-judgemental, and I value this in others. While I am not close to any gays, I have several wonderful friends who are bisexual. Rather than confused, they just seem to be extremely open-minded.

[rescuemom]

I too would like to see statistics. I’m not sure that there is any greater ratio of gay to straight in the horse community than in the real world. It may be that our perception is skewed because there is a greater openness about sexual orientation?

On the gay=feminine issue: There’s a Gay Rodeo Association, openly gay rodeo participants. Does anyone consider bull-riding a feminine sport (notwithstanding the few women bull riders)?

Maybe a bit far afield, but I have always wondered why so many straight men seem to feel threatened by the mere presence of gay men.

[Good_to_go]

CLOSE ENOUGH!!! <BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sea Urchin:
But Good to Go, that would mean you’re only 27 years old right?..NOT!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[bs_what_n]

Interesting.

My friend’s husband is a trainer and is straight and he is NOT interested in the finer details of riding such as grooming, braiding… But, on the other hand, he can shoe his own horses. Not to say his horses arent clean or are unprofessional looking, but that is his wife’s detail. Also, his fashion sense is horrible but it is no matter to him.(wife helps out here again) When students complain that his oh so untrendy garb is embarrassing, he shrugs. He is totally into the riding, teaching, training and barn maintenance. Many people that have come to him from gay trainers find him to be competant but missing on the “finer” skills of comunication.

He is certainly NOT into music, art, theater, books… and dancing - forget about it. Funny thing, no rhythm on the floor, quiet still, rhythmical courses on the hunters and jumpers.

Wonder why some of these stereotypes fit (not to say they all do) Must be how we, as a society, come up with them.

[Retrophish]

Sometimes the solution to these heated debates is so simple. The problems are from misunderstanding. Any one remember playing that telephone game that illustrates how rumour get all convoluted? (make a line and wisper something in the first persons ear and they then whisper to the next…)

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kryswyn:
[B]Perhaps, since we have proved we can handle hot topics in a logical, non-attacking manner, now would be the time to settle the following issues:

Dehner vs. Vogel
1st & 3rd billets vs. 2nd & 3rd
Tailored Sportsman vs. Millers CR-7

[/B]Jair has the right idea, Boxer Briefs ONLY, please - there solved.[B]

Jack Russell vs. Corgi
Corgi (Pembroke) vs. Corgi (Cardigan)

[/B]One of each, please - there solved.[B]

Appaloosas vs. Anything
Mane pulling vs. GroomaSolo Comb

[/B]Pick the App and you dont need to worry about the mane - just kidding.[B]

Chocolate vs. Vanilla

[/B]Swirl[B]

and finally, the longest lasting argument ever to appear in Ann Landers column,
Toilet Paper: Fall OVERthe roll vs. Hang UNDER the roll.

This one is so difficult that I have to admit, we just let the roll sit on the back of the toilet rather then offend anyone.

No kidding, folks, this has been a great thread.[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Can I get thougts on this?:
As a straight person (or at least only slightly bent) I have seen that it seems almost easier to be in the horse world and be gay. Some of the greats out there seem to surround themselves with birds of a feather and if your not of that type, seems like it’s harder - despite the talent level. I know of a very specific example of when being straight actually detrimented a persons career. Does this seems accurate and might this be a reason for a seemingly high amount of homosexuals in the horse world - because the straights find it too hard and get out? Just a thought - I know I might be all washed up, but there does seem to be some reverse discrimination. Of course, I know there are some top riders that are straight too, but Im talking about the average Joe’s, not those extremes.

[Policy_of_Truth]

Ok. As perhaps the only person on this BB attending seminary, I hope that I will not automaticaly be written of as a close-minded conservative biggot. I do believe in the inerrancy of biblical scripture, which says that homosexual sex is a sin. HOWEVER! Please read carefully, because this might actually shock some of you: The Bible ALSO says that all sin is the same in God’s eyes…that means extra/pre-marital sex, lying, drunkeness, and homosexuality are EQUAL sins in God’s eyes… Please keep reading…I do not understand why God said it was wrong. But, as a believer, I cannot pick and choose what I want to believe so that the Bible fits MY mold…instead, I believe that I have to mold myself to the Bible, as this is also what is asserted in Scripture. Please do not hear me say that YOU have to believe what I believe. Sure, I’d like for you to take my faith seriously and try it out, but I am not saying all of this in hopes that you will…that’s up to you. But I do want it made known that just because I do not agree with the lifestyle, doesn’t give me or anyone else the right to condemn people who choose to be with same-sex partners. I have had and still have several friends who live a gay or lesbian lifestyle. They know that if they expect me to be tolorant of their choices, they have to be tolerant of mine. I have a few gay friends who have decided to give up the ACT of homosexual sex in order to give up what they also agree to be sin. The way they have explained their choice to me is that their love for Christ was greater than their love for that area of life. They are not bitter, and they made that choice all on their own.
When a topic like this comes up, it concerns me because while tolerance is being preached, it is rarely given to those of us who do not agree with what it is we’re being asked to tolerate (i.e. Christians who believe the homosexual lifestyle to be out of sync with biblical teaching and thus are usually branded hate-mongers, intolerant, uncaring, and judgmental). Please take into consideration that the Christian assertion against homosexuality as sin is immediately followed with the free offer of grace and forgiveness through Jesus Christ. Further, it is erroneous to assume that a person will wind up in hell because he or she is gay/lesbian. On the contrary, eternal damnation is based upon a person’s unwillingness to accept the claim made by the historical God/Man Jesus Christ that He is the Son of God, offers full grace and forgiveness and eternal life if one chooses to accept this offer by surrendering control of their life to his Lordship. Christianity is an exclusive religion because the main character (i.e. Jesus) made an exclusive claim that cannot be ignored. In comparison to other world religions, Christianity shares many of the same ethics and moral values/teachings/commandments.

[Jair]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by pacificsolo:
Hey, Jair! I just started excercising horses for an Arabian Sporthorse farm, and most of their crosses are with the SF’s…I haven’t ridden either of the ones that are broke yet, but I’ll let you know what I think of 'em both after I do! Absolutely awesome breed and so gorgeous to look at!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

PacificSolo - sounds like a cool job. You are so right about the SF’s - they are beautiful. I fell in love with them when I first saw the French Team in action at the Royal Winter Fair in the '80’s. They are like peas in a pod in how powerful and sleek they look. Gotta love Quito de Baussy and Baloubet de Rouet!

Hey Nancy - never thought about that particular reason for hanging under. Not that our cat would ever do someting like that…

Good point Pwynn - 20 years ago would have been different (was only 7 so no personal experience), although I imagine the gay men were there, they weren’t Out There so to speak. Good to see that’s it become more accepted, especially from some of the people who posted here who indicated that they had grown up with same-sex couples at their barns as trainers, and never thought anything of it. That’s how it should be IMO!

Hey, if its trendy to be gay, then I must be TOTALLY TRENDY because I really am!!! LOL

[Erin]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pat:
Maybe I’m just in a BAD mood (ask WishMeLuck) but why is this subject now OK with a name change?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, the original thread was not deleted by either me or Weatherford… whoever started it must have deleted their first post. If the first post in a thread is deleted, the whole thread goes. (Don’t ask me why… the UBB gods seemed to think this was a good idea.)

I didn’t even see the original thread. I came home from the barn to several email messages asking me to delete/edit it, but by the time I looked, it was gone.

At any rate… I don’t know what the original thread was discussing, but I have to say that this is one of the most interesting and thought-provoking threads I’ve ever seen on this board, and I’m very happy to see it being dealt with in such a respectful and logical manner. Please carry on!

[Portia]

Oops. I fear the person who started the “marry rich” thread was serious, and we didn’t take it quite that way. None of us really meant we would marry for money, but it was all in good fun. I hope she wasn’t offended.

[Retrophish]

Inverness,

You must be a special kind of lawyer (is that right, you’re a lawyer?) to be able to say everything I was TRYING to express but in about half the words. Isnt it usually the other way around?

I am positive that we have had mares that were homosexual and I have heard about other examples from nature. Im going to try to find some and satisfy my curiosity.

[Duffy]

Who has seen the new Ellen DeGeneres comedy special on HBO? I thought is was GREAT

[Retrophish]

Jair,
I think the whole idea of acting too god like is scary on every front. And selective abortions are something like that. (and another touchy - not very equestrian like topic) I suppose not just selective ones either.

What about these women that abort because the child will have down syndrome? God forbid we ever get to the point where we terminate pregnancies that are not the right sex, hair color, IQ or whatever else we will someday be able to determine by genotype.

The whole idea of cloning/genetic engineering is completely scary and surely needs some sort of regulation. Forget aliens. Do you ever think there might be a day where we are having this same sort of discussion but with the topic being whether we will ever treat clones equally and kindly and with out prejudice?? Never mind, I’d rather stick with alien invasions…