Open Discussion

[Jair]

Hi PonyGyrl - Welcome to the BB! and thanks for joining in on this discussion.

You and Anne have brought up some good points about women in horses. Funny, I too have noticed how strong-minded horsey-women are. Many seem to be very practical - probably because they have learned to rely on themselves as the main caregiver of their horse. Not to mention that most of the grooms are girls too! LOL - Girls and horses: that should be a thread unto itself!

Anne, I think your ex and I need to sit down to have a little chat! Can’t believe he has those ideas about how your relationships with your female friends could affect your daughter! OMG - I mean, what gender does he think most of your daughters friends will be?

[Jair]

Hmmm… I think you missed someting Anne. The quote made perfect sense to me, and did not, IMO, defeat the pro-gay arguement at all.

The way I read it was that in order to be successful, a population must be diverse. A diversity which includes homosexuality as part of the successful equation. Diversity means that there are many varied parts to a whole. It does not suggest that one has to go one way or another. So, no, society will never “diversify into homosexuality” as you suggested. That would be dumb.

and yes, I am more than capable of fathering children. But just because I’m am not interested, does not make my contribtuion to our society any less.

Hey Retrophish - should the world need to call on me - hope they pair me with you!

[This message has been edited by Jair (edited 07-14-2000).]

[N_B_T]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Snowbird:
I’ll bet that the same people who want to protect some little wood turtle from extinction cannot comprehend the need for the same difference between people and want to “modify” that behavior. Are “tree huggers” equally sensitive to the biological differences between people? Do they have a priority list of approval for which differences are most acceptable?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Snowbird, don’t bet the farm, you’d lose it!

aka “treehugger” by some definitions

(agree with much of the rest of this post, therefore surprised at your intolerance of environmentalists…many of whom are quite open-minded )

[This message has been edited by Nancey Phillips Fisher (edited 07-15-2000).]

[Anne_FS]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Good to go:
So Erin where are you?? I think enough is enough with this topic…<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh for heaven’s sake! The topic moved away almost immediately from SS to generalities. It would be more appropriate to give this thread a new title but it seems to me there’s a worse prejudice in shutting up mention of sexuality . Did you ever think that there are those on the list who are gay who would rejoice in good news about someone else without all the uptight straight people jumping in saying ‘no, no, we can’t have that here; we shouldn’t be talking about this.’ That shows fear of the subject in my mind. Anti-gay prejudice in the horseworld or the rest of the world is not conquered by stifling any mention of being gay. We’ll be over the prejudice when nobody cares, but we’re on the way to getting over it when we can say, yes, I’m gay, or she’s gay, or he’s gay, and it’s received like, oh, okay, no big deal, which is the sense I got from the last thread.

Anne (who’s ex is gay and has found that there is less prejudice in the people who ask a direct question than in those who run around saying don’t ask, don’t tell). Just my opinion.

[Inverness]

Pacificsolo and Jair – I think they could use the two of you at Camp David just now!

[JRG]

I just don’t understand, call me nieve but I could care less what anyone does as consenting adults in there own bedrooms. It doesn’t consern me and don’t care who you are. If you are nice to me I will be nice back, plain and simple. At one point I believe it was called common curtesy.

[Bertie]

Thanks for the kind words, Retrophish & Jair.

This is quite a thread… Who would’ve expected to find discussions about the Bible on the Chronicle BB??? Those stories cited by TabithaCat, if taken literally, are terrifying!

To echo a previous message, I wonder how the stories would read if the translations had been done by feminine minds…

[Anne_FS]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by pwynnnorman:
But isn’t it equally steotypical to state that gay guys are “feminine”? There are masculine homosexual men out there, too, right? Or are you saying that the more “sensitive” ones (and I don’t know about that either: I’ve known at least two guys of that persuasion who were as “sensitive” as a slug) prefer English sports for the same reasons that women do?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hope you don’t mean me. I never said gay guys are ‘feminine’; I said they’re gay guys. Stop thinking that gay equals feminine; it’s not true and not only exerts pressure on gays and inhibits straights from acting in honest ways they might act but won’t because of the gay stereotype; this is not good. You are of course right that “gay men are feminine and gay women are masculine” is another huge stereotype/misconception. We’re caught in our century: we just happen to live in this time/country with these views and sometimes it’s hard to transcend them. Hundreds of years ago men wore long, curled hair and bright colors and women rode astride long before the sidesaddle came into fashion…many of us are mentally trapped in our narrow times and can’t see before or beyond.

Sometimes you hear people talking about ‘gay-dar’ and it’s such a hoot; they go on about how they can always tell; meanwhile they don’t have a clue that some of the people at the table with them are gay. But they don’t ‘look’ gay–good grief! How ridiculous!

[This message has been edited by Anne FS (edited 07-13-2000).]

[Portia]

I’ve been sorry not to have enough time to contribute the kind of well-stated response this topic and thread deserves. But I wanted to say this has been a great thread, and such a good dialog among intelligent people discussing important subjects rationally. You should all be proud of yourselves – even if pride is a sin.

[pwynnnorman]

BTW, Jair, I also play the piano (minored in music as an undergrad–for love, not talent: I really suck, but I’ve never enjoyed a subject more, no matter how embarassing it was during performances. I never got a grade in my minor higher than a C-, except in Music Appreciation). So I guess the real question is: Are you any good?

[Jair]

Thank you Retrophish

Have you ever seen “Sex in the City” with Sarah Jessica Parker? They did an great episode awhile ago about “gay-straight” men and “straight-gay” men and how they can’t figure it out anymore. It was a hoot!

There was some truth to it though. Sometimes I can’t even tell! I need a new gaydar…maybe a Sony this time LOL!

But yes, sometimes there are gay men who live out straight lives. Perhaps because they feel it is “easier” to act/be the way society expects them to be, or perhaps because their internal struggle is so great that they are afraid of the consequences. These men must live in torment. Some, I think are just so confused they don’t know what to do so they get married just because they think they should. Others marry to keep up a front - a friend of mine is a partner to a very very wealthy man from a prominant business family who also has a wife and daughter (but lives with my friend). When he goes to a business function, he takes his wife; when he goes on holiday, he takes his partner. Sounds weird, but the four of them (Husband, Wife, Partner and Daughter) have worked it out. Although I think the wife gets the short straw - but kudos to her for sticking it out.

Strangest of all though IMO, are the straight guys who like people to think they’re gay. I can’t help thinking they are doing it just to get the girl’s confidence before “moving in” so to speak. Don’t know much about those kind. I have heard the odd comment from lesbians that some women have chosen to have relationships with other women because of terrible experiences with men (abuse, rape etc.) That I can understand.

Hope I’m not being to forthcoming for some. I tend to ramble…

I liked your comments, by the way Snowbird.

[horsenut]

Jair, I’m one of the lurkers you referred to in a previous post. I’ve been enjoying this thread for the last week. Not to leave anyone out (EVERYONE’S posts have been really great and thought-provoking), but I’ve especially enjoyed the exchanges between Pacificsolo and Jair.

[PepTalk]

I just have to say, I am SO proud of you guys! To take on a topic such as this one is a VERY hard thing to do and you guys took it head on, without any name-calling, fist-fighting, etc. I am glad that you guys have the openness and willingness to discuss this topic with all the points of view being presented. Erin, give all these people a blue ribbion! (Just Kidding!)

Just for your information, I know a LOT of gay people that don’t know the front end of a horse from the back, but they are some of the nicest people, I’ve ever met. What they do in their private life is and never will be my business. I am glad, that for the most part, the horse world has been an accepting place for these people I call “friends”. They have discoved the one true love of my life and that is: the horse. Nothing else sould matter.
These are just my thoughts and if I offended you, I am sorry. All I wanted to do was prise you on a job well done. That’s all.
OK, I’ll stop rambling now.

[Kryswyn]

What do you mean, None of us would marry for money??? Heaven knows I wouldn’t marry without it! Pardon moi, but to paraphrase someone’s mother, “You can fall in love with someone rich [B]even faster[/B] than someone poor.” At least I can, I’m pretty sure Duffy could, I know Colin’s not checking out homeless men before moving back to M’burg.

[Inverness]

Difficult as it can be to admit, yes, I’m a lawyer, Retrophish. Worse than that, I’m a Washington, D.C. lawyer!!! And if you need an example of “lawspeak” just reread that second sentence in my post --eeegaads! I wrote that multisyllabic goo?! That’s what I get for writing this stuff off the top of my head instead of taking the time to compose it properly.

I’ll be curious to see what you turn up in your research. Keep us posted. This is a fascinating discussion.

BTW, I’m going to share a secret; its us lawyers that make up all the lawyer jokes.

[This message has been edited by Inverness (edited 07-14-2000).]

[PepTalk]

I REALLY REALLY REALLY wanted to see it, but I don’t have HBO! Grrrrr! Anyway, I am glad it was funny. Ellen can make me laugh, anytime, anyday!

[Jair]

Interesting topic about the bible - when did the spoken word become the written? I do know that when King James I of Enlgand (6th of Scotland)suceeded Queen Elizabeth I in 1603, the first thing he did was have the bible completely re-written! That’s why its referred to as the King James version. How many monarchs/rulers before him had it revamped just to suit their viewpoints? I imagine we are a long way away from the original “stories”.

Back to the issue: gay animals? (as oppsed to garanimals? hee hee hee. Had to add that now that I know what they are.) I have heard that more and more these days about homosexuality appearing in nature: I think that it has been documented in chimps or baboons, can’t remember which. and I remember David Attenborough talking about one species of birds that exhibited gay behaviour (don’t you love his shows? I think nature shows are my favourite) Don’t remember which ones though. I even remember reading something about how Darwin observed gay behaviour in animals during his voyages but refused to document it for fear of reprisals.

[Anne_FS]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jair:
[B]
Anne, I think your ex and I need to sit down to have a little chat!

[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ahhh, well, actually, he’s a pretty great guy. We all have our less-than-stellar moments, though, myself included. It’s just that he made a crack last time we talked about how the women & men who ride hunters are all gay, hoping to get to me. I left him but spend almost all my time with h/j & eventing folk and yes, a number of the guys are gay, which he has extrapolated to then everybody’s gay. He doesn’t understand.

I have a 14 yr old son who is not crazy about the persnickety-ness of hunter riders and a 16-yr old daughter who is big-time into horses - the crack was made to get to me about my daughter and her strong-willed, confident female horse buddies who don’t give a hoot about what the guys think of them, so he was implying that meant that it’s not just the guys in hunters, but the girls, too. He’s so clueless sometimes. He hates when others make stereotypes about being gay but he does it himself by what he just said! And lots of people do this. Sometimes I think gay people I know are more prejudiced and full of stereotypes against straight people than straight people are against them, but I guess it’s the same both ways.

For instance, back when AIDS was first being discussed he was so furious that it was being labelled a gay disease and would shower me with statistics to show that wasn’t true. Then when poor Magic Johnson got AIDS the first thing my ex said to me was, see? so many pro athletes that you all think are so macho are really gay–there have been rumours about Magic for years. I said, but AIDS isn’t just a gay disease. Magic says he’s straight and he got it heterosexually…my ex laughed and said, oh, come on, that’s so rare (this was years ago, remember)that transmission is rare, of course he’s a closet gay if he turns up with AIDS.

Aaarrrrghhh! He never saw his own double standard in those statements. Until I pointed it out of course!

Anyway, he could tell you worse stories about me, I suppose, and I could tell a hundred nice ones about him when all is said and done.

[This message has been edited by Anne FS (edited 08-01-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Anne FS (edited 08-01-2000).]

[Snowbird]

If you accept the existence of another attitude that doesn’t make you pro-gay, and if you have the opposite opinion that doesn’t make you anti-gay.

What many have forgotten is that the concept of protecting the minority opinion is just for this kind of thing. In a democracy you cannot comdemn something just because there are more who agree with you than those who disagree. Actually, in a debate those who want to take the Bible too literally could get into some very tight places. There is an awful lot of adultery, incest and murder in that most honorable book.

No I don’t think there is some inborn memory from our genetic inheritance that makes us attack those with a different sexual identity. I think it is simply the myopic view of the world from only their own perspective.They are very convinced that their analysis and morality are the only correct one, therefore they feel compelled to defend it and seek to punish everyone that doesn’t meet the standard.

Didn’t any of you ever watch “Outer Limits”? They often put it very clearly.If the majority (ref: aryan nation) of the people are white with blue eyes and blonde hair then anyone who is not like them is an outsider and as such suspect. I suspect this is the base instict at work but that is totally learned and not genetic. Except that it is natural for like creatures to want to be with other like creatures.

If God had wanted us to be homogenous then like a flock of birds we would all have identical markings. What a masterpiece we all are, imagine the newly mapped Genome indicates that we are all 99% the same, so all the differences about which we become so emotional come from only 1% of the genetic codes.

[N_B_T]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Snowbird:
All life should be respected as a miracle. Jesus surrounded himself with the poor, hopeless, the sick and the dying, the tax collector (no more hated human at that time) and the prostitute.I think what the Bible taught me was that all life, even that of the sparrow matters to God. If it matters to God it should be respected. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

See? The diversity of life is a miracle to me…how people can calmly contemplate extinguishing it to preserve one or two (or three, if you include JRT’s ) species is a mystery to me.

Jair, Anne FS was simply being biologically accurate. Metaphors and analogies are great (love 'em myself) but better not to confuse them with facts!