…So I will add my reply here. Well, I live near SF, so I am very tolerant, it’s a lifestyle they choose for themselves, and as long as they don’t try and force themselves on me, I don’t care. I wouldn’t want a straight male to force himself upon me, or try and kiss me if I didn’t like him (besides, my BF would have a prob with that LOL!) as much as I would want a lesbian to try and kiss me. I have many gay friends, and it doesn’t bother me in the least bit, male OR female. I also have a gay cousin and uncle, both in monogomous relationships, and I consider their SO’s family. I may not exactly agree with that type of lifestyle, but I will not condemn a person because of their choices. I will judge them for who they are, not who they are attracted to, as I feel it is what is inside that counts. And even though I don’t agree with it, I don’t come out and say I don’t agree with it. If they ask me what I think about them being gay, I will tell them that I don’t have a problem with it at all, and that it is there business. Life and friendship is worth more than who kisses who.
That is my point, there are different perspectives during different times in history. I am a believer that if we don’t know history we are doomed to making the same mistakes over and over.
Yes, during ancient times there was much more tolerance towards “differences” and homosexuality was an accepted part of every day life regular life. This could be why in the teachings of Jesus, a homosexual was not specifically included as was the prostitute and the tax collector as part of the mis-understood members of society.
If you read much in Sociology you would be surprised at what is not only acceptable but virtuous. It was the war between the Templar Knights as advocates of the western christianity, versus the Constantine and the eastern christianity which started so much of the schisms. Yes, even then there was a difference of opinion as to what the teachings were meant to convey. The King James version of the Bible survives to us as the victory of the Templar Knights after they burned the library in Constantinople.
There is another interesting book “The Holy Grail” which proposes a sequel to the story by the Templar Knights that you might find interesting.
Many years ago, a good friend and I were bemoaning the fact that there were several very attractive young men in “our world” who would rather sleep with each other than with either of us. This was very distressing. (we were 20 - it WAS distressing)
Anyway, one evening after a show, we were questioning it again, and Lee’s boyfriend happened to be there (so we didn’t discuss how distressed we were - just wondering why). Rick didn’t know which end of a horse ate, but he looked at us like we were from a different planet and said, “Well, that’s easy to figure out.” Our turn to give “the look” - he said, “It’s so obvious… riding is an art, but you’re dealing with an animal that outweighs you by about 1000 pounds and has a mind of its own. A gay guy has more strength than a woman, but has a woman’s soul and finesse. Of course, they’re wonderful riders.” Well, duh. And this from a construction worker!
This has been a wonderful thread and I would like to Thank the participants for providing such a Great education.
I personally have never understood why people get themselves all worked up over things such as race or sexuality or religion. In a perfect world,(I wear rose colored glasses)it would make no difference. I try to live my life by not judging people. I base my likes and dislikes on the individual. And that’s how I feel it should be. In my mind there are so many more important issues to be addressed. For example, How many children are physically, emotionally, sexually abused in a day? What is being done about the education system in our country? How can literacy be improved? These are just a few issues that come to my mind at the moment.
Anyway, again I would like to Thank the participants of this thread, this has truely been educational and enlightening.
What really bothers me is that kids (especialy guys) my age seem to find it the ultimate put-down to call someone gay. I’m the only one of my friends who seems to NOT have a problem with homosexuality. Little do my guy-friends know, 1 out of every 10 of them will probably end up being gay! But oh well, whatever floats their boat.
I think that if kids my age had more of a chance to be around people who are different from them (either in sexuality, race, age, etc) they would NOT be so condescending (I hope I used that word correctly! Hehe)
Great topic Anne.
“The Bible contains six admonishments to homosexuals and 362 admonishments to heterosexuals. It doesn’t mean G-d doesn’t love heterosexuals, it’s just that they need more supervision.”
I will web surf and try to find the source for the above quote, but it is a favorite of mine.LOL ! Am I any good? Hahaha. Sorry, my mind is in the gutter. That just struck me as funny considering this topic
Seriously though, Pwynn, I am a fairly good pianist, not brilliant, but I went through all the grades with B+ and the occasional A as well as winning the odd recital/competition. I didn’t like competing though because for me its all about the enjoyment of playing the music. I love to play and to my ear it sounds pretty good (my partner though thinks I’m brilliant 
)
I play the guitar mostly by ear - took basic lessons but mostly just fool around with contemporary stuff like Great Big Sea, Barenaked Ladies etc. I doubt I’m any good, but love to do it.
Interesting points Retrophish. (did you get my email?)
I would say to the first part, that yes, it is easier being gay in the horse world because in general it is more accepted. (as evidenced on this thread). No one thinks twice about a gay man at their barn. They might notice he’s gay, depending on the individual, but then just not think about it anymore. However in the general work force (ie. “suit world”) it is more noticed and probably thought about quite a bit. And, in lots of cases, not treated well by the other male co-workers. My old job which I hated was like that, a lot of the men were very standoffish towards me (some more enlightened individuals thought it was kind of cool that I was gay) and some I got the impression were scared that I “was catching” or something 
. Hated that job. Worse thing was that I never actually said anything about it at the beginning- a b*tch of a female coworker who was upset after months of flirting unsucessfully with me until I finally said “not interested” blabbed over the whole (+300 staff) office! Grrrrrr.
Left that job to work back at the barn for a while to re-establish my equilibrium. And man, what a joy. Not just the horse aspect which is incredibly soothing (I often go to the barn if I need to think) but just that people know me for who I am. And thats it.
As for you other view, Retro, that in the close-knit hunter jumper world you almost NEED to be gay to get ahead. Hmmm. While I can see that happening on a small scale, I think that in the long run - its how your ride and conduct yourself that will make an indiviual succeed. How I can see it happening though is through a gardening example: there are lots of gay men/women in the garden industry, and as many know, the gay community is good at recognizing their own. My mom loves gardening stuff - so I offered to take her to this great garden centre near my barn (very, upscale, snooty type place, lots of beautfiul flowers etc. though - the garden centre, not my barn). I noticed right away the owner/propieter and main helper were gay. Mom doesn’t think about this. Anyways, when my mom was trying to get help, she said the men were snotty and rude and kept brushing her off with “back in a second”, however, when I stopped the very gay owner for help - I suddenly got the royal treatment. Big smile etc. and a “what can I do for YOU”. My mom asked after, why was he suddenly so polite to you and not me? My answer: because he knew I was gay. So yes, there is favourtism out there.
I haven’t had much to do with the big hunter/jumper shows, so someone else will have to give examples of gay favourtism in those circles. Hope I am making sense…
Tell me more about your example, Retrophish. I’d like to hear it.
I posted on the original thread but thought you might be interested in this. I have some friends, man and a woman, living together for the past year. Very much ga ga over each other. She is decidedly heterosexual. She has an identical twin who has is an avowed lesbian and has been living with her partner for the past 13 years.
If you are born this way or that, how do you explain it?
OK, Jair. . .Since the “marry” thread was deleted, I’ll just have to post here to find out more about your brother-in-law and his uncle! 
35 yrs old is pretty close to my ex, but 65, hmmmmm…still a possibility…Need more info! LOL
Oh, Nancey – I can definitely sympathize with the cat issue w/ the toilet paper. One of mine used to not like it when I was away!!
[This message has been edited by Duffy (edited 07-21-2000).]
Not that anyone should care about my opinion, but I have to say that I’ve been so impressed with the sensitivity, candor and openness shown by the posters on this thread. That this topic can be discussed like this is a very good message, I think. One of the reasons why my husband did not wish my son involved with riding (or figure skating, or gymnastics) was because of it’s reputation for having a preponderance of gay involvement. What I have tried to communicate to him over the years, is that a specific environment was not going to “make” our son gay. However, I would like him to be in an environment (whatever that may be) that he will be comfortable being whatever he is! That being said, I have to say that my husband has allowed our son to be involved in any sport/activity he wishes. I’m not sure if I’m making any sense here. I apologize if I’m not communicating this thought very well. . .
[This message has been edited by Duffy (edited 07-14-2000).]
I work in a large well known international orgainization in Washington. Our medical, travel, educational,and financial benefits have always included domestic partners whether gay or straight. In fact the benefits can extend to whomever you choose One of the main reasons, I love the City and even though I love riding am leary about living too far out for the farm is the loss of that diversity. I know it is not far and completely prejudiced to think of people in rural areas as rednecks and bigots. The only problem is look at poor Mathew Shepard, and now most recently the Gay African American in West Virginia, who was beaten to death.
Thank you Goodmudder…all I was stating was that names should not be named!!! I have been involved in the horse world for over 25 years and I have NO problem with anyone’s sexuality…just have a little common courtesy for people (ex:Scott Stewart)…geez!!! <BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Goodmudder:
AnnFs: If you read my post on the former thread, I never suggested that the topic should not be discussed by whomever cares to discuss it - but I believe that people should be able to make their own choices as to their own names being used - a common courtesy, I would have thought. No, I’m not prejudiced - just trying to be thoughtful of individuals.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Any time anyone is injured in any way, just because of a “difference” that is equally evil. I hope you will all remember that when you attack someone personally for having an idea with which you disagree.
It’s fine to debate the issue, to explore the ideas that built the opinions, but never to seek to humiliate or intimidate someone for being different.
We have on this thread discussed our differences, we have discussed many of the taboo subjects like religion, politics and honesty. We can discuss and learn from each other about why or how these things came to be, if they are valid. Some may even change their minds.
[This message has been edited by Snowbird (edited 07-29-2000).]
I agree totally Retrophish! Cloning is scary stuff. There are a couple of good Star Trek’s that deal with this issue well. (sorry, back to the alien theme…)
signed Jair1, Jair2 or Jair3…
Hey, thanks for clarifying that for me Anne.
I totally understand about the double standards. Its funny how sometimes we manage to confuse even ourselves about what we think about an issue. I am sure I have contradicted myself more than once in some of my posts. We always know what we mean on the inside, but somehow it doesn’t always transfer to the written form very well.
Its like some of my university essays, I knew exactly what I was talking about - its too bad the professor didn’t! LOL!
Snowbird - I accept that there are differnt opinions on this (or any issue) and that having thoughts on one particulary viewpoint doesn’t necessarily indicate that you represent that side of the arguement. If it sounded like I was attacking Anne, I wasn’t - I neither think Anne is pro-gay or anti-gay. Anne is Anne and I am enjoying her thoughts. As I am yours.
You know, I am beginning to feel like the “gay oracle” because I seem to be the only gay man (well, that I know of anyways) posting on this thread. Someone else out there must have a gay-oriented opinion. (Where did you go Pepper?) I am just one person, and I wouldn’t want someone genuinely curious about this topic to think that my gay influenced views are the only ones.
A final thought for the day: I have to say that the views expressed by those posting on this thread rival any conversation I have had with any of my gay friends. This is the most philosophical discussion I have ever had about this subject! I especially liked hearing from the younger kids.
Jair
Pacificsolo,
Then you can understand that I wasn’t trying to say that faith was childish. What I’m trying to say is that like great art. Those artists who are able to be simple and cut to the chase in what they represent are by far the better artists. Those of us who see too much who cannot prioritize are not as valuable communicators.
I envy the artists with that talent and those who have a convictions of a faith. I just don’t think that there is only one expression that is valid. Perhaps, I should explain. My husband is a Jew, my mother is a born again Baptist, my father was an Orthodox Christian and I was raised as a Roman Catholic.
I learned that each philosophy while they had differences were much the same. All of these people dear to my heart were good people without malice. I just think that it is the need to feel that there is only “one” right path that I cannot accept. I have come to know personally very good people through the arts and through horses with all sorts of deeply believed convictions. Yes, I too was trained first in the arts and the painters were the ones who left us the images of faith. They are images bought and paid for by the church. Michaelangelo was a painter under contract to the Pope. That does not demean his art or the Pope but it was the accepted vision of the days in which they lived. That does not make it necessarily the only truth.
So I can admire those who see live with a simple vision, but with my background I see a more complicated vision. Is that a gift or a demon to be exorcised? I am not yet sure. I do know it doesn’t make me a good painter.
I apologize Nancy, I didn’t mean to imply that “tree huggers” were not tolerant. I just wonder at the ability of some people to be so concerned over the welfare of the physical environment and not take equally agressive action for the psychological welfare of people, as we have discussed the variations within man himself. This in the context of some who would not be unhappy if the homosexual was extinct because it is different that what is expected to occur. I think also there are so many shades of grayit is not just so simple and clear to me.
In reply to Pacificsolo I tried to make that point, not clearly or well it seems. But, I do believe that part of what Jesus taught us was we should have an inclusionary attitude towards even the most hateful people (in those days the tax collector). I wonder if the reason that a homosexual was not specified was because it was more acceptable in that time of history and therefore they were not left out of society or degraded.
Devildog–the world needs a bunch more people like you.
Hi Inverness. What is Camp David? I’ve heard the name before, and can’t remember if its a real place or more of an allegory.
As for the “Holy Grail” Snowbird - is the book as interesting as Monty Python’s version?! LOL! One of my favourite movies.
