Open Discussion

[Snowbird]

I am a student of history and sociology, I don’t think we should be so sure that there are only supposed to be two sexes. I think that are many examples during the process of evolution that show there is room for other points of view.

It appears to me that even in the animal kingdom there are 5 sexes. In history other civilizations have known that and tolerated it. Why in this so called civilized world does anyone care what anyone else does in their bedroom?

I do care deeply what people do to children whatever their sexual identification. Children need to find themselves and identify themselves and grow to make up their own minds about their pleasure. Gender identity is a complex and difficult thing, it is not so simple as some would like to believe.

We should not judge, nor can we judge anyone until there is proof that there is only one “right” choice. That’s why this kind of a thread can be hurtful and therefore serves no beneficial purpose. We will not convert those who are prejudiced.

[Anne_FS]

Wow! 100 posts on this thread. I wondered if it would take off or just drop away, and I originally sat & thought a minute (how unlike me ) before clicking ‘send’ then thought, oh go ahead, take a chance on stating your honest reaction…so glad it worked out the way it did.

[Weatherford]

What’s Rita Mae Brown say? Something along the lines of if sexuality were on a scale of 1 to 10 with 1 & 10 being extremely straight and extremely gay, most of the world’s population would land right in the 3-7 range. (Actually, she may have said 4-6, but who’s counting?) Interesting thought…

[Jair]

LOVE the quote Twister. Look forward to hearing where you got it from.

[Retrophish]

I have some questions, now that this topic seems to be better accepted. Since Ive not had very many close or open relationships with gay men/women - I have often wondered about some things, but have never had the chance to ask.

Especially considering my science background, I have varying theories about the origen of homosexuality and the resulting public reactions through history.

I hope that my ignorance on the subject isnt offensive, but my questions (to anyone that might know) are:

When does a person realize that they are homosexual - specifically and how long after til a person comes out? (I realize this varies)

After coming out, what is the reaction by the family? friends?

Do you, gay or non, feel homosexuality is a choice or genetically determined - or both?

In what way(s) do you most feel society’s intolerance?

[pwynnnorman]

I think it IS starting to be cool to be gay, particularly in the horse industry (including the women). At the same time, though, I think what Retro is seeing has to do with the number of top trainers who are (openly) gay. If you think back 15-20 years or so, especially to the jumper ranks, you might recall the dominant male figure was dramatically different, wouldn’t you say?

[Snowbird]

First there is nothing that says it is wrong to believe in a literal translation of the Bible. It only becomes wrong when the people who believe that try to impose their ideas on other people.

Just judge from the many ways the same words have been interpreted by so many other people, all well intentioned. Look at the wars that have been fought in the name of the Bible, and the people killed in the name of the Bible.That’s what happens when you feel compelled to have everyone believe as you believe. Not because of what it you believe.

Even identical twins can be different. Isn’t it true there is frequently a bold one and a shy one, a leader and a follower and lots of other variations. It simply makes sense that what see in other creatures is likely to be a pattern for us too.It isn’t a unique situation for the humans alone, but I’ll bet it goes all the way back to the Cro-Magnum.

[Jair]

Thank you very much Horsenut! Glad you have been reading. Its been quite the thread. BTW I was a chronic lurker for awhile myself - till I came out of the closet (pun intended) ! LOL

As for you Duffy - what happened to the “marry” thread? That was getting pretty funny. Oh well, I have know doubt that we’ll all find another silly topic one day… but that was pretty good for a friday!

[This message has been edited by Jair (edited 07-21-2000).]

[pwynnnorman]

(Glad you got it, Jair.)

[Policy_of_Truth]

I hadn’t heard about the guy in WV…that makes me so angry. I will never understand why people hurt others because they are different. I still have a hard time hearing people refer to the “pistol-whipping” of Mathhew Shepard. No matter how much I might disagree with a person, choice, idea, I could never imagine hurting them.
Thank you Horsenut…your compliment is very special to me, and I’m sure, also to Jair.
And just so you know, I’d marry for love over money any day! I had the chance twice to marry a millionaire…I never fell inlove with either, and I wouldn’t want to spend my life with a man I couldn’t love. Now, of course, love is a choice, so, maybe…na!

[Jair]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Inverness:
[B]It would appear, therefore, that the only thing “unnatural” about homosexuality is society’s condemnation of it. It is an exercize in futility to oppose things that just are.

[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well said Inverness. How true. Sad, but true. “Man fears that which he doesn’t understand”. As is the case in so many other issues. I can’t help thinking that is the root of racism too - the first white people to see a darker skinned person were scared as they had never before seen someone like that and considering the old tradition that white and black equals good and evil, I often wondered if those “first contact” people automatically assumed black skin = evil. I could be way off base here. But I have often pondered that. Lord help us if an alien ever did arrive…

Back to religion and homosexuality. I find this intriguing, not being religious myself. I too have heard many times that I am off to hell because I “lie with man instead of woman”, but have never been shown any religious text to support this. I know the story of Sodom and Gomorrah (I’ve been labelled something along those lines before by a religious fanatic type once but won’t repeat the words here) but am curious about where else this is mentioned in religious texts? In the past there have been many religious groups opposing the gay lifestyle to the point of advocating “gay bashings” that I want to know where they are coming from with all this hatred.

It is horrible to think that there are still some countries in this world that throw people in prison (or worse) for being gay. Or others being murdered because of what God they beleive in.

Maybe those aliens will take me with them…

[system]

WOW-what a thread!!
It has been a pleasant surprise to read through EVERY post. Imagine - all this on the COTH BB- whooda thunk it?

[Retrophish]

OK boys and girls,

I have been using my billable hours wisely. Check this out. I just skimmed quickly, (that’s redundant isnt it, isnt it?) but it seems to be on the up and up.
http://www.salon.com/it/feature/1999/03/cov_15featurea.html

Here is a great quote from the article that supports sexual diversity in (nearly every type of) animals.
But we can bring the lions to testify that there’s nothing unnatural about human sex lives, that bisexuality and homosexuality are not among those twisted human inventions, like income tax, or graduate school, or step aerobics, that have no close analog in the wild.

[This message has been edited by Retrophish (edited 07-14-2000).]

[rescuemom]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Moesha:
… in Washington. Our medical, travel, educational,and financial benefits have always included domestic partners whether gay or straight.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The health insurance benefit coverage for domestic partners is mandated by city law (and I have no idea how they got that past Congress). Any couple who have been together 6 months or longer may apply for coverage.

[Policy_of_Truth]

Alright! I had no idea that people would actually be receptive to hearing what I know/believe! I am going to do us ALL a favor, and when my boyfriend (who attends Duke Divinity School here in Durham) comes over, I’ll let him respond to your questions…it’s not that I don’t know, but my explainations will be much longer and tedious! I can tell you this: Homosexuality is mentioned MANY other places in the Bible, and Paul (NT) speaks of it perhaps the most of any one person. And there is absolutely no evidence of Ruth being involved in a Lesbian relationship with her mother-in-law. This is again, one way that people (no matter who) try to fit the Bible to their agenda, instead of fitting themselves to God’s word. One thing you will have to understand is that I (as well as other Christians) trust and believe that the Bible is “God-Breathed” which in effect means that no matter who authored the words, God INSPIRED them. This is the first step to understanding why we do not wonder whether human-error caused any problems or mis-representations of God and His intentions. Another thing I want to speak to is that certain authors wrote in Hebrew, while others wrote in Hellenistic Greek. It really depends on the author for the NT, but all of the OT is written in Hebrew…it is what our bretheran the Jews refer to as the Torah. We have the same Diaspera, and we all recognize Jesus, but those who call him Savior are called Christians. We refer to the OT as the Septuigent. I wish I could explain to you all the process of Cannonization that took place over many years in order to decide which books would stay and which would go. It is a lengthy process that many of the world’s greatest thinkers were a part of. I wish I could make this faith that I so stongly believe in not sound so difficult to swallow…but it wouldn’t be faith if I saw it with my own eyes…faith is many things to many different people. I believe with all my heart that Christ is who he says he is, and that his word is the living word from which I recieve the waters of life. I cannot help you understand why homosexuality is a sin, because I myself struggle with it. But, I imagine that people who are homosexual and ask for God help to show them what he says, he will. In fact, I know this is so, because he tells us it is…and I struggled with pre-marital sex, and once I was ready to ask, God was faithful and showed me. I asked, and the door was opened.
I appreciate so much the tolerance that I have been recieving on this topic. I haven’t been able to check em since yesterday, and I was concerned about what would be said about me, and my beliefs. Thank you for being gracious.

[Jair]

Thank you, PacificSolo for returning to the discussion. I understand where you are coming from better now. And to Snowbird as well. I was not brought up in a religious background, and very few of my friends are religious so I have little experience with it. Nor have I felt the need to seek it out. Maybe I will someday. You have all left me feeling very peaceful today after reading this discussion (at the library no less! I don’t have a computer at home). But I don’t feel that I can contribute much on the religous front. I look forward to reading what else comes up on monday.

Thanks Nancy - friday was a long day for me at work, and I really shouldn’t have even posted as I was in the wrong fram of mind… should have let sleeping dogs lie as they say. (or crabby geologists anyways…)

Good weekend everyone.

[Jair]

Thank you very much Anne for starting this - whether or not it goes anywhere doesn’t matter. The fact that its been brought up is what counts.

I actually did post again under the “SS” thread agreeing that this topic of “gay people” and horses is a good one to continue. I am happy to discuss it And am curious about what others think about why there seems to be an association between gay men (and women) and the horse industry. My friends and I have never been able to figure that one out…

[This message has been edited by Jair (edited 07-12-2000).]

[Pepper]

Jair: Robert Dover and Mason Phelps indeed founded the “Equestrian AIDS Foundation.” EAF has been around since 1996, perhaps earlier.

[Finzean]

LOL Carol!! Makes sense to me!!

But I’ve got to second JRG… as long as it’s 2 consenting adults, not my issue or my business.

I have many gay men friends and I just love it! Husband loves what they’ve done with my dress clothes wardrobe!!! (tom girl at heart & would wear barn clothes 24/7 if left to own devices! ) Now he can take me to his business functions and not be embarrassed because I came in my “good” jeans!! (No it’s not really that bad)

[Retrophish]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Anne FS:
…so glad it worked out the way it did.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Me too!! I learned lots and lots and also, my belief in the inherent nature of people to be compassionate towards one another has been renewed.

I discovered that Im not the only one who is confused and not quite sure what is religiously correct, but yet there are those out there that give me faith by upholding their own.

And a whole lot of other thoughts…

And I cant leave out that I met Jair and I smile whenever I think about him.

Thanks to everyone.

I have more questions and when it seems that I have become settled with all the thoughts that this post has provoked, I hope to be able to coherently post them.