<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Snowbird:
First there is nothing that says it is wrong to believe in a literal translation of the Bible. It only becomes wrong when the people who believe that try to impose their ideas on other people.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
So true, Snowbird. Couldn’t agree with you more!
Duffy, me too! I just found the “Marry Rich” thread today and printed it out a couple of hours ago. Thank goodness! I would have been p***ed off if I decided to wait until after work and came back to find it gone!
If we could all understand that there are different opinions by other people on every topic in the world that would be a start.
If we could all accept that the different opinion doesn’t indicate that the person is demented, evil or criminal that would be a start.
If we could isolate the point of view and the issues from the people who propose them that would be a start.
If God had intended that we all be clones of each other he wouldn’t have created so many different people.
It is really our attempt to homogenize the world that causes the violence and disputes.I find it so interesting that while we expect all people to be alike, think alike and act alike we are so devoted to saving even the remotest little variant in all other species.
I’ll bet that the same people who want to protect some little wood turtle from extinction cannot comprehend the need for the same difference between people and want to “modify” that behavior. Are “tree huggers” equally sensitive to the biological differences between people? Do they have a priority list of approval for which differences are most acceptable?
You’re right, “pwn”… I guess I did ASSume too much. Still, anyone killed for ANY reason bothers me.
And Duffy, I was engaged for 6 1/2 yrs, and it FELT like a marriage, and when we broke up, it felt like a dicorce! But, I learned what NOT to look for in the next man, and what I had to have in the next man…you know what one of the top requirements was/is? He has to respect my love for horses! I couldn’t imagine it any other way!
As far as those millionaire’s go, if I can locate 'em, I’ll give them your em! 
!
I agree Pepper. I am actually a bit wary of the genetics route for explaining why someone is gay beacuse I fear that it may end up being abused i.e. woman told to terminate pregnancy because genetic tests shows child will be gay. I’m not being paranoid, its just that there are still many people out there who think homosexuality is so wrong that they feel it must be stopped at all costs.
Although I agree (and wish) that being gay should be accepted as is, unfortunately many people need that scientific validation to accept something they consider “out of the ordinary”. For some perhaps, if they realize that one is born gay through genetics than maybe they will be just a little more tolerant, and through tolerance comes understanding. It will take time.
My older gay friends like to remind me that things are much easier for me now then they were for them. Sometimes it is important to take a look back to see how far we’ve come in order to enjoy dreaming of what is still to be.
Really, now. Everyone knows the t.p. should fall over the roll. How else can the cleaning lady fold the end into the nice little “V”?
Way to go Retrophish! 
What a great article. It made me laugh out loud (good thing I have my own office!) I am going to have see if I can find a copy of that book - would love to read it.
I think this is a great quote:
“Successful life forms are characterized by diversity, so changing environments don’t wipe them out. That diversity often extends to sexuality. Thus bisexuality and homosexuality are characteristics not of twisted nature, but of generous nature” (SALON | March 15, 1999 )
My congratulations to all for their continueing efforts in not letting this topic turn ugly. We are doing a great job!
PacificSolo, IMHO the reason you are still struggling with why “Homosexuality is a sin” is because you know gay people, and they are GOOD people. How can they be sinners? The answer is in your own words.
The word of God while God inspired, is still interpreted by men and I do mean MEN. When the Books of the Bible were put together, you can believe that nobody named Mary, Rachel, Elizabeth or Naomi was in the room. Most men are NOT homosexual and are afraid of being considered so. Can you just imagine this scene in the Middle Ages where the learned scholars (all men) are reading the apocrapha: There’s a story by Andrew the Wanderer about Jesus spending a stormy night in Canaan with Simon in a cave “where they partook of each other’s bodily warmth”?? They all looked around, the bishop says “That doesn’t add anything to our lord’s story,does it brothers, hmmm? NEXT!”
and out it went.
God gave you a brain of your own. Use it. Question authority even while you adhere to it. Work to change what doesn’t make sense to your heart. If we all are created in ‘God’s Image’ then God had a reason for every diverse people he created. We may not understand that reason, but it is none-the-less true for that lack of understanding.
Actaully, I’m nearly positive that there is a story which says that Jesus and another male had to keep each other warm, so Kry, be impressed!
Snowbird, I think what may be the hardest for anyone to understand about my faith is that part of being a believer is believing that the only way to heaven is through accepting Jesus Christ as one’s savior. This makes it an exclusive religion. God asks that we make a choice, and I’ve made mine. I will NOT condemn anyone for choosing differently than I do, but it’s not my place to do-so. I love people so much, that I tell people of the joy I have found in my savior. I cannot call myself a Christian if I do not accept ALL that God says.
As far as the Bible being vague, it really isn’t. You just have to study it to undersatnd it. It’s a wonderful mixture of using your heart and your mind in such a way that they do not argue together, but they create a beautiful dialogue that gives life and harmony to the human mind and soul. Also, the evocation of the Holy Spirit is part of God revealing His scripture to His people.
I have great respect for people that ask me questions about my faith, if they can accept my beliefs as a part of me, and not put me down for them.
One of my best friends in college was Hindu, and I admired her commitment to her faith. Even though we saw our beliefs as the one way, we learned that we could accept that about each other, and even admire each’s tenacity in the reapective beliefs. It never came between us because we both wanted to build each other up, instead of tear each other down.
I’d like to second that thank you. I refrained from posting on that thread so that it would disappear more quickly. It seemed counterproductive to keep the thread at the top of list when I thought it should be removed immediately.
Discussing sexuality is one thing, discussing a specific person’s sexuality is another. As for this thread- I’m all for it!
I was exposed to same sex couples at an early age (8 or so) from riding with a man who lived with his partner. My parents never made an issue of it. In retrospect, I realize that this relationship is what solidified the idea that people live together when they love each other in my mind. From that early age on, I knew that love was what made families. It was the common denominator. Gender is unimportant. When a person decides to buy a horse, they look for certain qualities of which gender is not usually one. If I found the perfect horse for me, I can tell you it wouldn’t matter a bit if it was a gelding, mare, or stallion. I would buy it. As would all of you. Why it matters so much when people choose other people, I have never been able to understand.
Jair, I think Camp David is somewhere near Washington D.C. and the White House because they just had (or are having) talks on the Middle East Peace Agreement or something like that. I thinks it’s a place where the President can go for meetings with different people from around the world to talk about different things.
Of course, I could be wrong. If it’s something different, I am sorry. Hope this helps.
Oh, just in case you wanted to know, there was a really GOOD, but SHORT, article about the EAF in an American publication called Horse Illustrated. I, for the life of me, don’t know where that article is, but when I find it, I’ll post what’s on it. Interesting article and it was well written too.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jair:
Thank you very much Anne for starting this - whether or not it goes anywhere doesn’t matter. The fact that its been brought up is what counts.
[snip]
And am curious about what others think about why there seems to be an association between gay men (and women) and the horse industry. My friends and I have never been able to figure that one out…
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You’re welcome. I think the gay association is American; in other countries it’s not considered gay to ride h/j at all. We Americans are a pretty prudish bunch when it comes to sexuality.
In my experience, the gay thing is more associated with hunters because hunters are so detail-oriented - having to look just so, be just so, that obsession with every little detail often does not appeal to young boys. I’m also involved with Pony Club and the boys have much more fun playing polocrosse or eventing; these guys tell me that the spit & polish and obsession with appearance of the hunter ring is BORING. Perhaps the creating of a pretty picture is more appealing to gay guys than to the average adolescent male; perhaps straight adolescent mails are not as advanced and it’s harder for them to have the patience and skills to succeed in hunters. Mainly, I think it’s really nothing more than an American stereotype that is feeding off itself to the point that boys who may have chosen hunters don’t because they’re told it’s gay, so we see less straight boys in hunters, so that must mean only the gay ones do hunters, and round and round we go.
I read somewhere that in the USA 95% of English riders are female, and 90% of Western riders are male. The Western riders around here are learning tasks (penning, roping - accomplish a concrete task), while the hunters are learning how to not only get a horse around a course, but to look good doing it. Different end goals: pen the cow, score a polocrosse goal, follow hounds cross-country at speed (doesn’t matter how you look - more appealing for awkward adolescent boys who physically mature slower than girls) or you can look good going around a riding ring, where two 13-yr olds, a girl and a boy, will have different physical finesse - she’ll most likely be more coordinated at that age while he’s getting into the adolescent gawkies big time. I think that’s part of the non-appeal of hunters for a lot of boys who want to zoom around and not worry about finesse.
Jair, if I win the lottery, the first thing I’m going to do is buy you a computer! I know how frustrating having your computer crash is, and my heart goes out to you!
Wow…so many thoughts and questions have been posted since I last wrote, so let me see what I can answer.
As far as my friends go who are not believers, it is definitely hard for me. It’s something all Christians face, IF they are truly in Christ. I sometimes cry at night for some of my close friends. A lot of my friends are “searching” and seem so unhappy with what they have found, yet the idea of Christianity is horrifying to them! It makes me sad, but it also causes me to pray. Recently, one of those prayers were answered. Something that must be understood about my faith is that praying for something doesn’t equal an automatic “yes” from God. Actually, it is a conversation with God. He gives us all free will to choose His way or our own. This is one aspect of my faith that I love…free-will.
As far as those horrible stories in the Bible, yes, they do exist. However, one must be aware of the whole context of the scripture before making a decision on how God intended for the words to be interpreted…and again, we are back at the fact that we are all sinners. And as far as sin being the same in God’s eyes, I didn’t make it up…God said it, and I have no right to say it is not true…that would make God a lier, which I am certain he is not.
As humans, we tend to deal with crime in a human way, by ranking it by the way we feel about it. But God still acccepts those who make those “bigger” sins when the person asks for forgiveness and repents the behavior. (Repent is to reconcile and discontinue).
I realize that there are still people who wil disagree with me, but I’m ok with that, as long as they do not attack me personally. I’m definitely not the first to feel this way about Christ, and I certainly won’t be the last!
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HAC:
My story looking back was quite funny. When I was sixteen, I went out with the hounds on a daily basis. I met this older guy(19 yrs.) out there who was working for the master excercising horses. We hit it off and became good friends(well I had a huge crush on him)and hung out through the summer. I thought I had struck gold, a guy I could date and ride with(and who had a nice car). He asked me out towards the end of the summer, but my father would not allow it since he was an older guy. A few years later he came out and we had a laugh about the whole dating thing. I of course had to inform my dad that he would have been the safest date I ever had, since he was probably more interested in my guy friends than in me.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
HAC - It is funny you say that - this is the same reason why my parents never minded sending me away to shows when I was a teenager - heck - no one there was going to hit on me!
Rescuemom - I beg to differ! The roll ALWAYS comes over the top! It makes more sense that way IMO. (except for the time Mr.Giant Spider came over the top for a ride… )
As for the others:
Dehner vs. Vogel - Vogels
Mane pulling vs. GroomaSolo Comb - the Grooma
1st & 3rd billets vs. 2nd & 3rd - 1st & 3rd of course!
Jack Russell vs. Corgi - Can’t stand either
Corgi (Pembroke) vs. Corgi (Cardigan) - German Shephard (to menace smaller dogs)
Tailored Sportsman vs. Millers CR-7 - Pikeur
Appaloosas vs. Anything - Selle Francais
Chocolate vs. Vanilla - CHOCOLATE!
And finally, the age old question that I’m sure everyone’s dying to know about me:
Boxers or Briefs? = the Boxer Brief of course!
I think I can understand what you mean about just feeling like you. I use to think when I could get the chance to travel, it would be so amazing and the rest of the world was going to be this great and different wonderland. When the chances finally came, the places were different, but I was still me. I didnt undergo any vast metamorphisis - I was still looking out of the same two eyes, just at different things. Not to say the places werent great, just that I expected them to effect me inside and I dont think that happens. You are who you are.
I think this understanding is why I am very tolerant of the differences in people. Not to say that I like everyone - there are plenty of people that I dont like, but they earn it singularly and not based on an inherent characteristic.
I see friends with kids and I wonder if it would make a difference if they turn out different then they expect. I couldnt imagine loving my neices and nephew any less - no matter what.
Another question: Doesnt it seem like there are some people that choose their sexual orientation? Whether they be gay, but choose to behave hetero and vice versa? I have more trouble coming to terms with this, but Im not sure why. I, speaking for myself, dont think that I could choose to be different then I am and since I cant understand - it must be why it bothers me.
But, Jair, I understand you perfectly and appreciate your candor. Glad you answered because I have always thought you sound like a great guy based on other posts. Plus, love your sense of humor.
Toilet paper under…so when kitty plays with it, s/he doesn’t unravel the whole darn roll (that goes for paper towels, too!)
Once again, a wonderful discussion…
Maybe I’m just in a BAD mood (ask WishMeLuck) but why is this subject now OK with a name change?
Sorry, just a little touchy right now…
EEEK, anyway, here’s another thought as to general acceptance of homosexuality. A girl who recently worked with me asked me once how I felt the general reaction of our customers would be if they realized she was a lesbian. I told her that I thought 99% of the adults and kids would be cool about it since no-one batted a eyelash when they met my BF. (14 years my elder and black, I’m white) She thought that an interacial couple was a poor barometer as nobody would want to be labeled a racist. I still think I was right about OUR situation, but who else thinks Americans can better handle an interracial couple over a homosexual one? Does it mean it’s simply a matter of time?
Hi Retrophish!
Funny, was just talking about gay marriages with another friend. The province I live in has just declared that they are going to fight the Canadian government to allow gay marriages here - they feel that it goes against the charter of human rights by denying “freedom of choice”. Good for them! I actually believe quite strongly in gay marriages - I think that if two people love eachother and feel that they would like to have their relationship sealed with a special ceremony that also has legal benefits, then they should be allowed too. It would certianly help in legal terms for those gay couples who have been together for years and when one dies - the vulture of a family swoops in a takes everything without a dime going to the partner of x number of years!
I think the problem with it being recognized comes back to the issue that “marriage should bear fruit”, and that as most gay couples aren’t going to produce offspring, then there is no validity in the marriage.
Funny, because in general I see lots of hetero couples not bothering to get married anymore at all because of the expense/hassle. But after so many years the common-law benefits kick in so there is still some legality to it. I believe some states/provinces (including mine) have common-law benefits for gay couples in place at the moment. A step in the right direction I think!
Glad to hear your company gives same-sex benefits Retro!
Hey Duffy - glad you saved the thread!
[This message has been edited by Jair (edited 07-21-2000).]
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