Open Discussion

[Kellybird]

Ben & Me~~I know exactly what you mean about adolescent guys thinking that the greatest insult of all involves calling someone gay. I’ve never gotten it–my friends and I are constantly reminding people (even those who don’t want to hear it!) about how remarkably ridiculus it is to use the term like that–we’ve started more than our fair share of gender wars

Personally, the thought that different sexualities were “weird” never crossed my mind–even when I was a small child living in Oakland, CA, when my parents would talk about one my mom’s good friends–a gay man–and his partner, I never even wondered why he didn’t have a wife/girlfriend, etc. Just never phased me. Now that I’m living in a much more conservative, close-minded, “good ole’ boy” type area, I really am noticing people’s reactions to the idea of different sexualities. Even some of my friends who I would see as very liberal are completely opposed to the idea! (Although, I shouldn’t be shocked to find out that people are less open-minded than me, I must be the ultimate California girl with a politically-correct mind, I censor almost everything I say, trying not to offend anyone. I’m such a tree-hugging, pro-choice, whale-saving, recycling nut. )

The other reason I responded to this thread again was that I wanted to say how refreshing it is to not see a bunch of horse people as conservative, stuck-up, close-minded bigots; I’m almost amazed by how much everyone here has shown their tolerance on the subject. No one “sounds” like they are just repeating a line either, everyone seems to be telling their honest opinions on it, not just avoiding a flame. I was literally smiling reading these posts, I was so glad to not have to suffer through more people trying to convert others or change minds, it’s all very open and accepting.

OK, I’m done for now, I’m sur eI’ll be back later with more.

Ciao~~
Kelly

[Policy_of_Truth]

Hey, Jair! I just started excercising horses for an Arabian Sporthorse farm, and most of their crosses are with the SF’s…I haven’t ridden either of the ones that are broke yet, but I’ll let you know what I think of 'em both after I do! Absolutely awesome breed and so gorgeous to look at!
As far as the new arguments, I’m a poor grad student! I can’t afford half of what was discussed! I’m just excited to have purchased a good pair of tall boots, a good pair of Miller’s jodphurs in beige, of course (gotta be classic!), and I own cats, not dogs…you know, self-cleaning pets are really fab! And I own an appendix-bred gelding, but my heart will forever be with Arabians! Ok, I’m ready to be blasted for that last statement! So, sue me! My first horse was an Arabian, and he STILL beats out other horses in the open Hunter shows! I love the looks on people’s faces when they find out they were amazed and enthralled with a PUREBRED ARABIAN! Brigadeer, you’re my HERO! !!!

[Kryswyn]

Like many here, I have had many gay friends due to my association from an early age w/ horses. Later I added musical, dance and theater friends.

Oddly enough, the one who sticks out in my mind was the man who acted like a closet gay (SO’s were never given a sex, always referred to as “they”, hung out at a gay bar (but NEVER admitted going there) and was way too concerned w/ his build and his gym time was sacred. Having left my closest gay friend in NY, I was looking to fill this void. So hoping to open up dialog, and because I’d been taught to be direct, I asked Brent if he was gay. His response, “It would be so much easier if I were.” Over the next few years, I learned that it probably would’ve been. I believe he was hetrosexual, but absolutely unable to have a relationship with a woman for many reasons. He also was a very devout Episcopalian which may have contributed to his inability to date men. He was clearly attractive to gay men, but inside himself, couldn’t go there. Being a former child theater actor, a musician, built like an ad for “Muscle Beach” people EXPECTED him to be gay. I know one housemate who was terribly in love with him but had another partner because Brent would not go to bed with him.

My point for what it’s worth: You can’t sleep with apples if you’re hardwired to be attracted to oranges, no matter how much you look like an apple.

[Duffy]

I’d printed out the “marry rich” thread for my sister’s amusement/entertainment last night – glad I did, except for the additions today before it was deleted!!

[Jair]

You’re the best Pwynn!

As for you Kryswyn - the “Front Runner” is one of my all time favourite books. Its actually the first book I ever read that had gay characters in it and OMG did it hit home! It made me cry at the end. Its the only book that’s done that to me. (Phar Lap is probably the only movie that made me cry: how can you forget the end “Oh Bobby, get up Bobby! Please get up!” as poor Phar Lap falls over…)

I had always hoped they’d make a movie out of it - never knew it had been considered! Tell me more.

I can’t say enough about how much I have enjoyed the thoughts from everyone on this post - I was actualy eager to come into work this morning to see how the thread had developed overnight! Duffy, I understand where your husband is coming from - funnily enough some of my gay friends think my horsey stuff is sissy! Grrrrrr I’d like them to try it once and see how THEIR legs feel after!

Pacificsolo - no one here would think of you as a “close-mouthed biggot”. Your religious views were very well presented and I found them thought provoking.

[pwynnnorman]

I’m glad someone brought up the WV incident. Right now it is under discussion as a hate crime and the national media is jumping on that bandwagon. But I’m here in WV, only about 20 miles from that town, and the LOCAL media has had more details that the national media don’t want to be bothered with, details that do NOT make it sound like a hate crime, but rather an association that went really, really sour.

I think we have to take care that we don’t automatically label something the worst it can be just because it shares a trait with that category. A gay guy who gets murdered isn’t necessarily the victim of a (prejudicially motivated) hate crime. The WV incident–given the background of the victim and the town, his family and the accused’s families–sure sounds more like hate from rage, not race or sexuality.

[Pepper]

Retrophish, I too appreciate your direct questions in your earlier post.

As Jair noted at the end of one of his posts, some folks have indeed “chosen” to be gay. Of course, plenty of nuances permeate that statement, because “being gay” can mean the sexual acts and/or the social identity and/or the political stance, etc. The choice may come from disillusionment with the opposite sex, as Jair described, or from political orientation (e.g., women should not depend on
men in any aspect of their lives), or from the observation that being gay is kind of cool.

Now, I’m sure not trying to speak for the gay community any more than Jair was, but to me, distinguishing between whether homosexuality is “chosen” or “genetically determined” or, for that matter, environmentally determined (nomination vs. nature vs. nurture) can undermine tolerance. It simply should not matter why a person is gay. Homosexuality is fine, period.

While I understand and to some degree share the scientific interest in such a question, many folks seem to have decided that if we can prove homosexuality is as outside one’s control as, say, left-handedness, then homosexuality should be accepted as a valid orientation. Shouldn’t it be accepted regardless?

[This message has been edited by Pepper (edited 07-14-2000).]

[Jeannette_formerly_ponygyrl]

So how many pages is it to print this thread?
I keep being late to work ‘cause I have to read “just one more reply”… I wish I had been able to read this thread whenI was a teenager - though I had heard that “all the hunter/jumper guys are gay” I hadn’t heard a peep about the possibility of women riders being gay, or event riders - and when I came out in college my school was building a beautiful new barn, but hadn’t yet funded a women’s studies department, so the campus political lesbians were pissed, and it sealed my belief that it was an either/or thing. Sigh. Now - 15 years later- I have a wonderful partner - and we’re thinking of taking up my Vermont justice-of-the-peace aunts’ offer to civil union us- and am back into riding (more eventing than showing, but y’all have far cooler discussions here, even aside from this one )But I still don’t know where all the lesbians are - esp since so many women with horses have sensible hair, look other women in the eye when conversing, and kick butt with basic physical labor competencies - all tendencies I learned long ago to associate with lesbians. So much for my alleged gaydar. Hope my smilies are showing up - guess I need to check out the tutorial on them instead of going to work now…

[Anne_FS]

It’s no big secret or mystery that there are animals who exhibit ‘gay’ behavior. There always have been. The mistake is when people use that fact to say that makes gay ‘normal’ or to justify whether that makes the behavior OK (even animals do it)or not OK (animals do it). What leads to the prejudice is that, if 10% of the population (human and animal) is gay, that means that 90%, the VAST majority is not gay. When you have that big a difference in what a population sees as normal vs. not normal you can see how the minority can be persecuted(normal as in the great majority do it, and it can’t be denied that the great majority of people & animals is heterosexual). The point is that our society needs to accept minorities and allow them to live their lives without harassing them - that’s the point.

The Kinsey sex study was the one that first stated the 10% of the population is homosexual. Later on Kinsey published that 5% was the correct figure - mistakes were made in the data, but people still quote the 10% figure. So here you have the tremendous majority being hetereosexual. A mirror of society is how that tremendous majority treats its minorities. It doesn’t matter if I’m gay or straight; what is of tremendous importance is how we treat one another.

Look at the foxhunting situation in England. As someone pointed out, if mounted foxhunters were a tribe in a South American jungle, rock stars would be holding fund-raisers to support their native ways. Instead, we are told that the urban/suburban majority doesn’t like mounted foxhunting, therefore it must be banned, and foxes are to be exterminated by rifle and traps instead. The urban dwellers have no tolerance of the rural dwellers. Lack of tolerance and acceptance stinks, no matter where you find it.

[This message has been edited by Anne FS (edited 07-14-2000).]

[Jeannette_formerly_ponygyrl]

Aiiee. I just had composed a cogent, incisive, dare I say brilliant post on hate crimes, men in skirts, and how 'bout them disciples washing each others feet all the time, and when I went to find out how to make a wink IE - I lost it. Sigh. But my truck was due for July inspection, so I’ve got to go cope with that now.
Printed most of this thread last night (around 50 pages) to share with my sweetie what I was sitting here chortling about, and now she’s laughing too. Which reminded me how I grew up completely completely indoctrinated in toilet paper over the top. There was only one way, and the other one was wrong. Then- a year or so ago- I discovered that out the back was easier to find in the dark. But that not knowing which way it would be was terribly terribly frustrating. Parable? You tell me

[Bertie]

Duffy, your husband should talk to my husband. My husband’s been riding hunters & jumpers for 30+ years and hasn’t turned gay yet.

I’m not so sure there are more gay people involved with horses than in society in general. I just think that maybe, because of the 24/7 aspect of horse shows, we know more about everyone’s lives than people know in other businesses. And because homosexuality is generally accepted in the horse community, it’s not hidden. This is a good thing

My brother was gay, and no one in his business world would have known. He tried to be straight; even married a wonderful woman. But he finally came out when he knew there was no changing. Still, no one in his business community would have known.

Someone asked about families’ reactions to finding out that a loved one is gay…I can say that my traditionally minded parents never understood, but always supported him. His ex-wife remained a part of our family and his best friend.

The question about genetics or environment is an important one because…My brother died from AIDS, and it was basically the end of my parents’ lives as well. They blamed themselves for his homosexuality (environment), and they blamed his homosexuality for the illness that ended his life. (Before the illness, there was no guilt, no blame, just respect for a different lifestyle). In this way, it’s an important question.

Sorry if this too serious, but thought I could add something.

[Snowbird]

At one time after long conversations with a Rabbi, very well read and schooled it was clear to me that Jesus was the first “Reform” rabbi.

We were going to join a Presbyterian Church and they thought that if Jesus came back and as the bearded cloaked rebel that he was he went into our Congress preaching honesty and equality he would today meet the same end.

I think what I’m trying to say is that we all have our view. Pacificsolo, no one is trying to undermine your faith or your conviction. It works for you, but not for everyone. It’s the evangelism, the belief that there is only one way and only one “right” that causes the trouble, whether we are talking religion, politics, family or sexual identity. There will always be schisms and they will always have advocates, what we need is to make room for everyone at the table.

[This message has been edited by Snowbird (edited 07-16-2000).]

[Jair]

Thank you to whomever removed the old thread.

[Pepper]

Yes, “Denim & Diamonds” is a lavish fundraiser primarily for the USET, and more recently for EAF, as well. Each year the event has a different theme, such as “New York, New York” one year, and an Olympic theme last year. Since Mason Phelps was in charge of the event for 4 years, it was natural for him to include EAF as a beneficiary. Beware the cost of the event ($250 per ticket last year). Of course EAF welcomes direct contributions.

[AHC]

Well said everyone. I too did not weigh in on the other thread, although if I had it would have been to say that if I could go to a clinic with any hunter trainer/rider in the country, SS would certainly be the person I would choose. He’s amazing, and I hear only good things about his training methods.

To add to what Inverness said, I am happy for those who have found love, sometimes mystified at how they do it, and hope that someday I too will find someone I want to be with for good (just broke up with a long-term boyfriend, so am feeling a little sensitive about that issue these days).

[Jair]

Let’ try again…

What I was about to say before, was that I too was glad to see this thread continuing and was wondering if anyone else had noticed that the longer its been here, the more it gets noticed/read and that new people respond to it positively? I thnk thats great. I also hope that many of the lurkers out there have enjoyed it too. Good for Anne to have started it - I contemplated it but was a little to shy to start it myself.

Funny, never thought that I would become fond of “virtual people”, but I have started to recognize the distince personalities behind the user names on this BB - makes it all the more fun! Wish I had been more creative with my username at the begining…

Thanks to those who answered my questions about Camp David and the EAF - talk about quick turn-around!

Interesting about me “fitting” in at Camp David - wonder if they’d let me in? LOL! Jair for Prime Minister ! Glad I sound reasonably intelligent in my posts - sometimes I think I forget what I’m talking about by the time I get to the end of a long one though.

Retro! (or Phish?) look forward to your questions.

Thanks again to all the new posters. Good to hear from you.

[This message has been edited by Jair (edited 07-19-2000).]

[ccoronios]

My best friend/alter ego/soulmate is a guy I dated for a while many years ago. I left for the summer and he came out of the closet. We continued to be best of friends - I even ended up living with him and his partner for a couple months. He had known since puberty that he was “different”, finally recognizing how/why - and was so miserable inside his skin. When he came out, his self came out - and became a much more content person. You need to be content with yourself before you can be of any value to anyone else…

[rescuemom]

Maybe this should be a new thread, a pre-Friday humor piece?

Dehner vs. Vogel - I use Petries
Mane pulling vs. GroomaSolo Comb - Grooma, no question
1st & 3rd billets vs. 2nd & 3rd - How about long vs. short billets?
Jack Russell vs. Corgi - Jack Russell
Corgi (Pembroke) vs. Corgi (Cardigan) - Jack Russell
Tailored Sportsman vs. Millers CR-7 - Aanstadt Das fullseats (or perhaps the booger fully seatless model, lol)
Appaloosas vs. Anything - TB, TB, TB
Chocolate vs. Vanilla - white chocolate

and finally, the longest lasting argument ever to appear in Ann Landers column,
Toilet Paper: Fall OVER the roll vs. Hang UNDER the roll. - We ALL know that the tissue always hangs UNDER the roll in the toniest homes!

[Jair]

I like your forthright questions Retrophish and I will answer as best I can from my experience, although others will no doubt have different views.

I was around 14 when I realized that I was more interested in my male classmates than the girls. I had lots of crushes etc. on them but didn’t really know what to do. Some of my friends say they always new they were different, but that is now how I felt - I have always just been me. But it was definitely NOT a choice, nor was it my family environment that influenced it.

Is it genetic? I don’t know. I would imagine it had something to do with it. I have two straight brothers and one straight sister - how come I’m gay and they’re not? We weren’t raised any differently.

As for coming out - that took me until university when I realized I was “not alone” and started reading some great books with gay characters that just blew me away. It was such a relief. Mind you, I was born in 1973, so by the time I hit 20 in the 90’s attitudes towards this sort of thing had changed considerably from what it would have been for someone 10 years older. Compared to many, I don’t think I have had a rough time.

My friends’ reactions? I was more interested in horses in high school so only really have one girlfriend that I keep in touch with and she said she knew all along anyways. I am still working on my family - didn’t tell them until just a few years ago. and the reaction has been mixed. I haven’t been condemned or anything like many of my friends who have basically been disowned, but they are trying and I just make sure I don’t shove my preference down their throats. They are good people.

Don’t know what else to say. Hope I have answered some of what you were wondering about, at least as it pertained to me.

And no, your ignorance is not the least bit offensive. It is very encouraging in fact

[Kryswyn]

PacificSolo: God loves all the little children in the world, even the ones who show Arabians in the hunter rings.