What do you all think?
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To George Williams point about the scoring:
How many times have we heard from clinicians/trainers that the movement we are doing is “good”, how many times have we seen from video and heard from other esteemed professionals (including judges) that a movement we are doing is good only to have that movement then be scored a 6-6.5 in that same test.
Now I know MANY technical aspects are required for many movements (suppleness, scope, relaxation during the movement), accuracy but even with the best of training the concept of what a “10” movement would be is not met in the ring (except for the occasional super horse/rider combination, mainly in the passage/piaffe movements).
So just what are the standards of a “10”, “9”, “8” (which is Good) that have been set forth by the judging panels that are not being met by the regular horses/trainers? When in many cases, the movements ARE “good”? Is this part of the “holy grail” that riders/trainers are trying to achieve by any method possible?
At the national/international levels, the horseflesh itself certainly is better than what was being presented in the ring 50 years ago. The riders we have now certainly have the advantages of training that many 50-100 years ago didn’t have. And yet watching many of (especially in the US) of the top riders, they are NOT scoring in the 70’s (fairly good range). Has the judging criteria changed to expect more from the horses now that the breeding and natural movement has gotten so much better? Or has the training really not progressed as much as we would hope?
Or are the criteria being asked too much to expect for even the top horses to get a “good (8)” score?
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I don’t know JJ Tate but I liked what she had to say. It’s not about winning, not if you love the horse, it’s about training the rider, it’s about the rider learning how to help the horse be the best it can be.
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I thought all three of them had great points.
Sabine Schut-Kery’s point is valid about the lack of certification of instructors in the US. But is that really relevant to the top of the sport or mostly amateurs?
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Agree all three of them had great points….but IMO the top riders are really responsible for the bad image of the sport in Dressage in the moment…. Not sure whether better trainer or whatever would help…. J vBW just added to the bad image. She pushed a horse she bought from Helgstrand through a test in a show although it was clearly uncomfortable and then she made the videos of her ride disappear…. And now she declared that she gave up on the horse and let one of her riders show the horse (results were not really any better). Not sure how this should be handled, but blue tongues, and rides like this should not be presented by the “Top” riders…. And I did watch the video, it was pretty horrible… She forced the horse with a concrete like riders position and strong rein aids through this test…. It was a little bit like raping the horse……
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I think they all had good points but it was all ethereal. Not something that can be concretely accomplished.
If you put something like that into a goal system at your workplace, it would/should be denied. It’s not measurable, or specific.
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Yes, agreed. Feels like a feel good piece more than anything, which I suppose is exactly what it is. I do like the conversation though but it’s geared towards the wrong audience, imo.
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Everyone at the top of the sport has to start somewhere. Who trains them, and how? We need well educated riders at all levels, and qualified instructors to get them there.
With our current “system” absolutely anyone can call themselves a trainer regardless of how much they actually know. A very wise horsewoman once explained to me that cruelty often comes from desperation. When someone doesn’t understand how to accomplish something with a horse in a kind and fair way, it’s a lot easier to take shortcuts and/or use gadgets. Education is needed at all levels, not just the top.
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Oh I agree 100 percent but what I meant was are the problems we do see at the top of the sport because of lack of education? Or just greed. Or just disregard for the horse?
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I guess I have a hard time thinking these top trainers are whipping the hell out of their horses because “they don’t know any better.”
But regardless the more education for all, the better. Absolutely!
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I just wish we could train empathy.
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If I was in charge of all aspects of the dressage world, I would REQUIRE that all adults who compete in dressage/eventing read and be able to discuss two books by Udo Burger:
"The Way to Perfect Riding"and
“The Rider Forms the Horse”.
Then these dressage/3-Day competitors would have a basic theoretical and knowledge that is appropriate for the physical health of the horse that also makes the rider so much more effective as a rider and trainer of horses.
I think you cannot mandate empathic care for the animal when there’s money involved. You cannot mandate education or a credentials system in a culture like America has (Canada too).
I think the scoring could be corrected to reflect the actual meaning of the numbers. If 8 = Good, then judges should be trained to give 8s for good. We now have half marks because the allowed marks got squashed into the 5-7 range unless something exceptional happens.
But. This is an international issue. I remember my Danish clinician talking about the “big 6” and “little 7” before half marks were in use. The change need to happen everywhere, all at levels, all at once (or within a short period of time). It would require re-education of all judges. It would require the will to change and get into a huge undertaking.
The FEI seems more likely to be a roadblock than helpful in such a challenge.
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In all the judge training sessions I have scribed for (no I have not attended as a trainee…), judges are really cognizant about using words that reflect the number (vice versa too). I think requiring comments for all numbers would help-now only required for under 7).
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In the OP’s article George Williams says
What we need to do is evaluate what really makes an 8, and what really makes a 9, relative to the natural ability of horses. In a judges’ forum years and years ago, which was held at Tempel Farms when I was there, one of the riders came in and rode a pirouette. The lead judge asked the group, “What word would you use to describe that pirouette?” The majority said, “Good,” but I don’t think there was a single 8 when they held up their numbers. I think we should try to keep it a little simpler in that sense, that the number and the words reflect one another in each movement.
As shown by George Williams statement, the issue is that there NO AGREEMENT on what the numbers mean. The Scoring Scale (FEI) is
10 Excellent
9 Very good
8 Good
7 Fairly good
6 Satisfactory
5 Sufficient
-==============
4 Insufficient
3 Fairly bad
2 Bad
1 Very bad
0 Not executed
The FEI scale has a Pass/Fail component at the marks of 4/5 with Sufficient/Insufficient.
- Sufficient: adjective. enough; adequate:
- Insufficient: adjective. not enough; inadequate:
The marks above 5 denote now much better than the minimum was shown. The marks below 5 denote degrees of how much worse than the minimum requirement for the movement.
The USEF then went and changed the scale to have a score of “5” become “Marginal.” What the heck does that mean…Kinda good enough???
As originally defined, the scale was a linear measurement scale…like a ruler.
0–1--2–3--4–5--6–7--8–9--10
As currently used by the judges, it is very non-linear, thus why half-points were introduced. You can see the cramming in the 5-6-7-8 range with the rare and infrequent use of 1-2-3 and 9-10’s
0–1--2----3-----4------5–6--7–8----------9------------10
Williams also discusses scoring “relative to the natural ability of horses.” If dressage is about training, then there has to be a standard for performance regardless of the horse’s breeding. I don’t believe there will be a consensus agreement.
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This.
When you start involving animals in sport, especially when it’s for money earnings, it all goes to pot, IMO. Sure, some competitive riders and owners aren’t all the same, but at the end of the day (IMO), it’s a selfish sport with an animal. It’s just inevitable that we’ll have this type of poor behavior. Especially when the governing bodies kinda suck at the animal welfare aspect of things.
I think the education/credentials system works in some countries because they’re much smaller than the USA and equestrian sports are funded differently.
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I was specifically talking about the verbiage that goes with each number. Not the characteristics of what makes a “7”….
I agree with you otherwise.
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I disagree that it was all ethereal. Difficult to accomplish, yes but not ethereal in this sense (from Dictionary.com)
ethereal
[ ih- theer -ee- uh l ]
Phonetic (Standard)IPA
adjective
- light, airy, or tenuous:
an ethereal world created through the poetic imagination.
- extremely delicate or refined:
ethereal beauty.
- heavenly or celestial:
gone to his ethereal home.
of or relating to the upper regions of space.
Chemistry. pertaining to, containing, or resembling ether.
Teachers in the education system need to be certified, why not riding instructors/trainers? I don’t think it unreasonable to expect some basic level of education for those who intend train others to compete.
Horse sport is becoming increasingly expensive and I think the article really hits the nail on the head regarding the increased emphasis on money and showing. Anything horse related has got to be way up there in terms of difficult ways to make a living. When trainers are under that kind of pressure in an unregulated industry, nobody should be surprised when “short-cuts” are taken.
The pragmatic reality, IMO, is that there is not a tremendous market for dressage instructors/trainers in the U.S. Add to the equation that it’s a huge country so someone in a more rural setting sure is going to have a hard time finding a dressage instructor much less one highly trained/educated because the opportunities to become highly trained/educated are scarce. Certainly the German riding federation’s approach to training riders and instructors is well-defined, specific, measurable, and has been successfully implemented. Just look at that nation’s Olympic record.
None of that means that people cannot learn and ride dressage, but if one is going to be out in public representing the sport at USDF sanctioned events, isn’t it better to put the welfare of the horse first?
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I hate that 8=good. That’s just crazy. How about:
10 Perfect
9 Outstanding
8 Excellent
7 Very good
6 Good
5 Sufficient
4 Insufficient
3 Fairly bad
2 Bad
1 Very bad
0 Not executed
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You would still need to get global agreement on the verbiage to be used. Then… (assuming your proposal is adopted)… agreement on what the words “Perfect” “Outstanding”…etc…mean.
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