What is wrong with “Excellent” for 10. “Perfect” is really a guarantee of not ever using a 10 because nothing in dressage can be truly perfect. I thought that was why Excellent is used.
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That’s what I was taught in the L program.
For those interested, the FEI Dressage Judge’s Handbook goes into great detail as to what comprises which scores for pretty much all of the movements.
Note I am not saying that those standards are uniformly applied by all judges.
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Is it just me (I know some of you responding are baby boomers like I) but hasn’t this discussion (observations by those featured in the article) been raised, hashed out, kicked about, etc over and over? Weren’t similar or the same types of observations the basis that instigated some of the changes we’ve seen (and already mentioned) in our current tests, judges’ training, emphasis on gaits or not yada yada yada?
I guess I simply took the article to be a generational reflection of the discipline, good, bad or indifferent but no matter what you can’t relive the past or recreate the past. It’s not too different from the lamenting I hear in my [veterinary] profession in regards to the challenges in hiring well trained, qualified, dedicated and reliable paraprofessional staff. Most of the time the discussion ends up with the fact ‘that you CAN’T train or teach someone to care’ any more than you can train or teach how to have, feel or express empathy [for the horse] in dressage. Basically you’re left to hope that people will ‘do the right thing.’
However, I remind my colleagues constantly that you can set the example as well as define, set and hold accountable the expectations of what ‘the right thing’ looks like. As has been stated the FEI Dressage Judge’s Handbook is pretty darn clear on outlining the movements, their requirements and execution and what the scores mean. It’s always been the application - be it the judges, the trainers, the riders - that’s causes the disconnect. When there were a significant number of judges who turned in their cards or retired from judging because they didn’t like the direction of where ‘modern’ dressage was going, instead of creating a wave of awareness that caused the industry to take notice and self-correct it instead has yielded a severe lack of good examples that put the horse first while demonstrating clear success (albeit often appears on the surface as the longer road) in a discipline that far outweigh the gains from the shift to utilizing short-cuts (both in regards to time and money). In other words without clear cut [higher] value placed on fair training practices and means/measurements to guarantee that is what’s being utilized to reach the goals, nothing is ever going to change - fast, ‘easy’, self-gratification is going to continue to trump all else. If higher value isn’t placed on preserving the longevity, sanity, along with the improved way of movement/expression of the horse in terms of measured success, dressage is always going to suffer at the hands of the greedy. The additional issue I see now is that there are fewer and fewer people around willing and able to demonstrate the good example let alone clearly define WHY it’s a good example.
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Realistically, there is no “perfect” in dressage. But I like the addition of “outstanding.”
This could work:
10 Outstanding
9 Excellent
8 Very good
7 Good
6 Fairly Good
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That works!
When watching a test, how would you separate “training practices” from “inborn ability” ?
Meanwhile separating out show tension, horse biomechanics (some go BTV without strong rein aids…), etc??
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So how would y’all judge these 2 riders’ piaffe??? Divided by 64 years…
Steffen Peters and Legolas in 2016…
And Marjorie Haines Gill…circa 1952
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I’m not capable of judging them but I’d love to see Gill’s horse unsaddled. I wonder who this is and what breed?
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According to COTH, this was The Flying Dutchman, a German horse that was liberated after World War II.
https://www.chronofhorse.com/article/women-in-history-marjorie-haines-gill-was-an-american-trailblazer/
I recall reading that he was a Hanoverian.
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Impossible, IMO, to judge piaffe from a still photo, but I see that Legolas is sitting more and taking more weight on the hind quarters as evidenced by the flexion of his RH. This could be an artifact of when in the piaffe the photos were taken.
Otherwise, at the moments in time the photos were taken, it appears many of the principles of piaffe are met by both. That said, I think Legolas looks “happier” and Steffen isn’t spurring the horse’s side as is the other rider.
From the FEI Dressage Handbook Guidelines for Judges (previously I called it the FEI Dressage Judge’s Handbook):
… In principle, the height of the toe of the raised forefoot should be level with the middle of the cannon bone of the other supporting foreleg. The toe of the raised hind foot should reach just above the fetlock joint of the other supporting hind leg.
The neck should be raised and gracefully arched with the poll as the highest point. The horse should remain light, “on the bit” with a supple poll, and a soft contact. The body of the horse should move in a supple, cadenced and harmonious manner.
Piaffe must always be animated by a lively impulsion and characterised by perfect balance. While giving the impression of remaining in place, there may be a visible inclination to advance, this being displayed by the horse’s eager acceptance to move forward as soon as it is asked.
Moving even slightly backwards, irregular or jerky steps with the hind of front legs, no clear diagonal steps, crossing either the fore or hind legs, or swinging either the forehand or the hindquarters from one side to the other getting wide behind or in front, or too much forward or double-beat rhythm are serious faults.
This reminds me of a video someone posted quite awhile ago praising a piaffe where the horse was visibly moving backwards!! Yikes!
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Well, if you can adjust the horse’s balance forward and backwards, I would label that as exemplary riding. I would give this piaffe and P-P transitions to be a “10”
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Give it whatever you like. There’s no law saying that your personal opinion needs to adhere to the FEI’s standards.
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Well…This is YOUR opinon. In my OPINION, this discussion exemplifies the problem with dressage judging and how there are different interpretations for judging.
It isn’t my opinion…If I compare the ride to the FEI requirements per your quote of the judging criteria, this ride seems to satisfy all the requirements stated by the FEI.
In principle, 1-the height of the toe of the raised forefoot should be level with the middle of the cannon bone of the other supporting foreleg. 2-The toe of the raised hind foot should reach just above the fetlock joint of the other supporting hind leg.
Criteria 1,2 - CHECK
Criteria 1, 2,3,4, - CHECK
None of these defects are shown…no markdown.
Instead of insulting my opinion…how about an objective discussion of the ride vs the FEI requirements.
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That was intentional. It’s a high school movement that’s not required in competition dressage, but it’s not an error.
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How old is this horse in this video?
Since you’re wanting opinions.
I don’t like how deep the rider is asking that horse to get behind, especially at the start. Just because we can doesn’t mean we should.
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But isn’t the horse moving backwards? which according to your posted requirements is a serious fault? I’m not understanding…
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The judging manual says nothing about “deep.” The FEI regulations say the horse should be
In all the work, even at the halt, 1-, “on the bit”, but it also has to accept the bit. A Horse is said to be ‘on the bit’ when the neck is more or less raised and arched according to the stage of training and to the extension or collection of the pace, and when 2-it accepts the bridle with a light and consistent soft submissive contact, thereby chewing the bit with a quiet, sensitive mouth. 3-The head should remain in a steady position, as a rule with the nose line slightly in front of the vertical, with a supple poll as the highest point of the neck, and no resistance should be offered to the Athlete.
CHECK
Yes, the horse is “moving backwards”…as a DEMONSTRATION of the horse’s willingness to adjust its balance, to move forwards and backwards…AT THE RIDER’S REQUEST…not as an evasion or due to heavy hands.
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I thought we were asking for opinions on the ride. I gave mine.
If we’re looking at the FEI directives:
That’s pretty cut and dried, no matter what else you look at eh?
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I’m sure the leg flinging that we see is just a DEMONSTRATION of their freedom of shoulder, too.
Edit: You can see during the ride the horse end up going backwards when the rider didn’t want him too. Fun party trick, I guess, but not something I’d teach a horse destined for these levels.
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