I think you’re right - a LOT of people walk into a new discipline heavily misinformed on what the goals are. That is not unique to dressage! I also think there’s “dressage” and “Competition Dressage” - two things that are more different than one may think.
8 Likes
Funny, I think they are more alike than many think. IME, people roll out the “competition dressage” line when they don’t score at shows as they think they should. An egg-shaped circle isn’t correct just because you’re at home vs in a show arena; it may be part of the overall training process though as are counter-flexion and other things.
This is not to imply that there are not problems within the dressage community as there certainly are issues regarding cruelty to horses, but again IMO, those arise primarily when people are trying to push horses to do things beyond their physical or mental capabilities.
11 Likes
I meant that “Competition Dressage” weights the gaits, whereas “dressage” is just… correct training for the horse, theoretically. There are certainly issues in the judging and what is rewarded, but that’s been hashed out in this thread a good bit already and I don’t have much to add.
I have definitely seen people say they do “classical dressage” while disparaging riders who compete, usually the core issue being they don’t have the funds to compete OR they have been disappointed with their results. That happens in a lot of disciplines though 
.
Usually in the interest of being competitive, I think. And that is not limited to dressage by any means.
Anyway, I just thought it was an interesting thing to point out - if the judge is setting the gait score as an upper limit and deducting from there, it makes the Gaits the most important thing on the test. If a “quality gait” in competition is a flashy, toe fling situation vs classically correct (ie the issue with the hind legs and front legs matching at the trot)… well.
8 Likes
There may be judges out there doing exactly this, but it is not how the L program teaches judging, nor is it consistent with the FEI dressage judge handbook. The quality of the gaits is one consideration in the evaluation of a movement, like it says in the test directives box on the score sheet. I’ve seen little quarter ponies score a ten on the entry and halt in training level tests because those suckers can be active and certainly are straight and stop square. I scribe a lot and have seen plenty of horses have individual movement scores higher than their gait scores in the collective. Hell, I’ve gotten individual movement scores higher than my gait scores.
7 Likes
Just to clarify and I’m not math person at all, but to get 40’s and 50’s at training level would the horse basically have to have gaits that aren’t correct (lateral walk, canter or weird trot rhythm)? Or just geometry mistakes on part of the rider? Basically what I’m asking is a smallish mover or a horse a bit on the forehand should not be penalized enough at training level to that degree, right? If I understand the directives at training level.
Not that I don’t disagree with your point and I totally agree with your point overall about moving up the levels on something purpose bred being way easier.
I do know at least three people that have done well on some QH’s at the upper levels. One was definitely ranch bred and not fancy but they trained up to GP and got scores in the 60’s all the way up the levels but yes struggled to get above 60 in the GP. But they had a blast getting there.
It’s not the easy road and it’s definitely not the competitive road though.
Editing to add this is just for discussion only. Not trying to nitpick on anything, just learn and discuss.
6 Likes
I did a local intro show and scored mid 60s on my ex rope horse… he’s so far from good at dressage it’s laughable. I took it to mean we at least didn’t make major mistakes. 
Gymnasts enter an event with a perfect 10 and then the deductions commence. A portion of the score is artistry, but a non-artistic but very correct gymnast will score better then a beautiful gymnast who makes mistakes. It is a brilliant (imo) way to score a sport because it makes it achievable for all (you know what I mean - not everyone can be a gymnast).
I always thought that is how dressage was scored too.
4 Likes
I believe it. I only did some schooling shows with my 4 and then 5 year old but we scored 68, 69, 70’s at intro and training level. I fully would expect that we would a bit worse at rated shows (And again I definitely don’t expect to really be competitive) but I can’t imagine that we go from getting a 70 to a 40 or a 50’s scoring if I rode just as well. I worked extremely hard on being very accurate and my horse is very obedient.
I love your thoughts on the gymnastics comparison.
1 Like
In my experience in our area, schooling show scores (mainly L graduates) are generally 5% higher than what one will score at the local recognized shows (mainly R and S judges) for similar rides. Has been this way for a couple of decades (even before the L program came into being). Although there are a couple of L graduates in our area who do score rides more like a R and S judge will score similar rides.
2 Likes
@Pehsness, my understanding is that it is not scored like gymnastics. The L grads I think are inclined to do this initially and end up with scores that are too low.
For anyone interested in this sport, I very strongly recommend scribing. It is a great experience. Locally, there may even be easy entry points to scribing via ride a test clinics, if you are concerned about the stakes of doing it at a show.
To add on to @atlatl’s comment, it is also important to mention that the collective gaits score is only assigned at the end, so that number absolutely is not going to be an upper bound on the movement scores during the test.
A completely separate mental thread based on atlatl’s comments about directives, it can be hard to understand as a rider how something like “activity” can make a big difference in your score and that lack of activity could either be a “test riding” issue OR a training issue OR rider understanding/education issue. What feels like a small change can make a big difference, but also sometimes what feels like a big change may only make a small difference in the score…so it is great we can all video and compare what we felt to what the ride actually looks like when reviewing our scores.
7 Likes
Makes sense and would sound about right for this horse. I think a 65 on him would really be a high score. Although the 70 we got was from a "r "judge.
1 Like
In our area, some “r” judges are more generous (compared to what one would score for a similar ride at a recognized show) than other “r” judges as well. Of course everyone wants to have a “high” score; one just has to keep the perspective that schooling show scores are almost always going to be scored higher than recognized shows. Even that same “r” judge at a recognized show will expect a bit more finesse than they expect at a schooling show. And regionals and finals are going to be scored even more to the international standard (and therefore lower) than local recognized shows. Should they be? Not really but that appears to be reality (at least it has been for as long as I’ve been riding schooling/local recognized/regionals).
4 Likes
That makes sense and I wouldn’t really expect different.
But does that explain atlatl’s experience with her QH? To me a small mover with level balance should not equal scores that low simply because of that.
I was happy with our 70 percent test but I definitely took it with a grain of salt lol. I thought it was overgenerous.
She actually told me to switch to western dressage to be more competitive.
1 Like
His gaits were pure in the sense of a good walk, 2 beat trot and 3 beat canter. The downfall was that coming from AQHA shows, what I thought was a trot was still pretty much a jog and while 3 beats, we had more of a lope in a level frame than an uphill canter. So not even quite to the standards for training level, everything was just tooooooo sloooooooooow. More than a couple of championship buckles for Western Horsemanship so no geometry mistakes. That said, I don’t think he ever scored lower than a 6 for submission. The other consideration is that this was late last century which fits into the narrative of scores being lower in general compared to today.
In comparison, the first show I did with the purpose bred horse I also scored in the 50s at first level, the main problems there being that a) the FEI horse was sure he knew what a real trot was and lit up like the 4th of July and b) I wasn’t ready to ride those gaits. If memory serves, he was scored a 7 on gaits, the comments lauded him and encouraged me to seek out more instruction which I did. A couple years later the schoolmaster and I tried again and earned my bronze medal in 3 shows.
8 Likes
Makes sense. Thank you for explaining .
1 Like
Also I bet today with all your education you could get respectable scores on a horse of similar conformation 
Or I hope so, in regards to the judging.
1 Like
You are very kind. I hope that I’d at least have a better understanding of where the scores were coming from and better know how to maximize the points based on the horse’s strengths.
1 Like
That makes sense atlatl. I also have the aqha background (but no buckles!) And the amount of forward required still takes me by surprise. If I take a few weeks off of lessons it takes me a bit to get my seat again so I’m not constantly rating the horse and inhibiting the forward.
I don’t have that issue with MY horse, of course, lol.
1 Like
FWIW, at one point I showed a halter bred Paint in dressage and IIRC, never scored below upper 60s. Those types can excel in obedience, submission, relaxation and precision. I’ve known several other QHs and off breed types who have scored similar.
7 Likes
