Yes. You read that correctly.
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This is so true. A good number of horses we see at the top of FEI do have long sustainable careers. I assume a lot of money is spent on maintenance. A lot less of the horses who win the young horse classes go on to compete at top FEI levels.
An 8 year old is a young horse that should have years of development and strengthening. Having had a number of young horses in the past and with my young horse now, the pressure put on these young horses to do the GP at 8 or 9 must be incredible. I know every horse is an individual but it just seems like a lot of unnecessary stress. Especially on big modern warmbloods who are still growing at 6 and 7.
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I have heard this from multiple sources and find it pretty depressing. Especially when the written standard promotes 15.3hh as the desired height for stallions and mentions a short flank, flat back, and strong loins. Now we have big horses with long backs and a weak connection between the back and hind end. How is that supposed to improve the dressage horse?
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Well, if you want to breed a ādressage horseā for international competition, it makes perfect sense to breed for was is being rewarded by the judges.
However, the history of the Lusitano has been that of a war horse. The mounted bullfight emerged from the 800 year Moorish occupation of the Iberian peninsula and Reconquista. The Moors attacked in little guerrilla bands mounted on their little Barb horses as opposed to the āformationsā of traditional European warfare. The Iberian nobles practiced āhand-to-handā combat using the bull as the adversaryā¦and thus was born bullfighting, an activity where the riderās life depended on the horse. This activity required a small, quick, cat-like horse, who could maneuver, change direction and speed in the blink of an eye. This is the horse I had. He was an APSL approved stallion (born 30 years ago) from a bull-fighting breeder. Once you have ridden these horses you wonāt go back.
I was at a revision in the US a couple of years ago where JoĆ£o was present. I asked him a question about APSL breeding goals and where to find these horses. He said the horse I had would not be approved now. I still look for breeders that produce the occasional āruntā figuring the genetic throwback might get me a horse like I used to have.
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One might also read that as the things listed having more weight than previously as they are considered in each.and.every movement. Also, fewer errors allowed before elimination IIRC.
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My understanding (which may be way off from reality - I will be happy to learn this is false) of the way the collectives are scored in either case is the judge has a mental tally of the movement average (i.e. mostly 7ās is a 70% ride), then modifies that number +/- based on the collective criteria to provide the collective score.
So if the gait inflates every movement score, that has a huge impact on āgeneral impressionā even if the ride was very man-handled. This is true even for the collectives broken out independently. The argument for judging this way is that if it is that bad, the movement scores will reflect it.
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As I mentioned upthread, a well known judge looked at the effect of āgaitā being factored into every movement and concluded that a badly ridden test by a horse with bling gaits would score higher than a well-ridden, workmanlike test.
I think it was written up in the now-defunct magazine, Dressage and CT. I will see if the internet remembers and if the article is on line, I will post a link.
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I donāt show much myself but if this is true (and I believe it can be or has been true in the past) itās such crap and why I donāt care to show much at the moment.
Iāve written about this before but I have a very modest mover. I totally would expect those that ride very well and are on big movers to outscore us. No problem there. But if someone is riding worse but their horseās gaits were able to inflate the scores enough to beat those actually riding better, thatās so defeating to me. Like whatās the point then?
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Itās been about 15+ years ago that I was at a show watching the grand prix. I think only four horses were entered. The last one in was a Quarterhorse (looked to be about 15.2 or 3h). That test was so well ridden, the horse obedient and supple but, it didnāt have the wowza gaits. I couldnāt believe how low they scored. I was angry on the riders behalf. They performed every movement, unlike a couple of the big WBās. I left that show thinking āonce again competitive dressage sinks into a circusā.
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Sooty can cause dorsal shading without the dun gene in bays. And as a lover of greys I also take offense to the coat color being called a disease. Most horses that are greys die wirh some melanoma. Not because.
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As stated, this isnāt the right argument to make because people tend to agree that the flashier horse SHOULD score better.
The level set (a term I am assuming you know well) is the right thing to look at:
When a bad test by a flashy horse scores the SAME as a clearly good quality but workmanlike test, HOW MUCH worse was the test by the flashy horse and is that a discrepancy we are willing to accept?
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Thatās so irritating! Especially if it was truly well ridden on an obedient horse. Not saying they should have won but they shouldnāt have been scoring so low if everything was accurate and well ridden.
That being said I am often one that shares inspirational stories here of many off-breeds doing well at the upper levels. So I know it can happen! Although I guess I donāt know how theyāre scoring against everyone else.
Iāve shared stories that COTH did on those riding Morgans, Mustangs, OTTBS, Haflingers and that sort all at I1 and up. They warm my heart with inspiration even though I donāt really care to show much.
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Iām not a dressage judge nor am I an upper level rider but, when you see a horse working so smoothly and quietly, hitting all the movements itās a real joy to watch. The horse was a nice average mover that showed total harmony with the rider. So no, not a class winner but certainly not so terrible as to be that many points apart from the others.
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This is not universally agreed to by judges I have spoken to.
That is good to hear, but I didnāt mean āallā people, or all judges, just āpeopleā (I assume a plurality) who donāt have any intuition as to why gaits-first scoring could be problematic/incentivizing the wrong things. (Pareto front is another relevant term I am sure you know.)
That said, I have been looking for 75% rides of the modern era and I am seeing a lot to like in 2024 competition, so maybe it is true that the tides are turning.
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I have been told this by judges whoa re my friends. Of course it depends just how ābadly riddenā the bling horse is. And of course the gaits need to be correctā¦
My memory is fading. The Dressage & CT article I recall was written by one of the āold timeyā German judge/instructor of the 1980ās. I have been looking for it, but I cannot find any references in the internet. Perhaps you can ask your judge friends if they recall seeing the article.
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There was a multi-part video on YouTube that was about the ānewā tests in, maybe 2016. Had Steffan Peters and Janet Foy. I remember Foy saying that the judge first determines the gait score and modifies from there. Of course, my question is how much āmodificationā are judges doing for faults like BTV, tension, etc.
I think the article might have been by Max Gahwyler. It was always great to listen to him. He especially had a problem with the math at the lower levels that he felt would reward big movers over correct training.
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So, like hunter judging? The horse comes in with a max score based on movement/gaits/quality, and gets deductions from there for errors? Which of course means a fancy freak of nature could make a LOT of minor mistakes (or a few major ones) before their score drops below the average mover, if the gaits are weighted enough. If the judges are more forgiving to the fancy horse and more harsh on the off breed/plain one, that gap widens.
Iām just speaking generally here as someone who loves the hunters and does not do straight Competition Dressage. Please donāt rake me over the coals if Iām mistaken in my understanding, and I donāt want to start a debate about the two disciplines. I just saw a similarity. If people go into dressage thinking it is supposed to be a test of the horseās training and a somewhat more transparent scoring systemā¦ they likely should not be looking to see that reflected in the ribbons as much, with the way the tests are written. In personal scores, compared across time, definitely! But maybe not so much in the actual competition part.
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Kudos to you for asking the question.
Regarding the bolded, IME, more than a few people go into dressage and donāt bother to a) read the movement directives, b) read the rules, or c) make an effort to educate themselves about the sport. Not that I have any great experience in hunters, but it is my understanding that itās judged on more than whether or not a rail gets knocked down.
Itās totally cool if someone want to ride dressage for the fun of it. I think problems crop up when there are unrealistic/uninformed expectations about scores at shows. Kind of like when Sheldon Cooper went to Germany to study for the summer and wasnāt the smartest kid in the class for the first time.
Iāll put myself out there as an example of this. I switched from quarter horses to dressage. At the time I had a horse that was a lead-changing machine; 15 ones were no problem. I knew enough that I knew I needed a dressage trainer however I really believed that this horse could do the Grand Prix. After getting high 40s and 50s at training level, I realized I was wrong. He was a competitive AQHA all-around horse, but he was built level and there was no way he was going to be a competitive dressage horse. Just not the job for him so I bought a purpose bred dressage horse and retired steady Eddie.
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