Opinion piece about current state of dressage and what some want to see changed

[CanteringCarrot]

@Djones

well look so long as we aren’t sharing videos that are relevant to dressage competition and scoring, here’s my contribution:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHfRfU3XUEo

[Djones]

@exvet

Is it just me (I know some of you responding are baby boomers like I) but hasn’t this discussion (observations by those featured in the article) been raised, hashed out, kicked about, etc over and over? Weren’t similar or the same types of observations the basis that instigated some of the changes we’ve seen (and already mentioned) in our current tests, judges’ training, emphasis on gaits or not yada yada yada?

I guess I simply took the article to be a generational reflection of the discipline, good, bad or indifferent but no matter what you can’t relive the past or recreate the past. It’s not too different from the lamenting I hear in my [veterinary] profession in regards to the challenges in hiring well trained, qualified, dedicated and reliable paraprofessional staff. Most of the time the discussion ends up with the fact ‘that you CAN’T train or teach someone to care’ any more than you can train or teach how to have, feel or express empathy [for the horse] in dressage. Basically you’re left to hope that people will ‘do the right thing.’

However, I remind my colleagues constantly that you can set the example as well as define, set and hold accountable the expectations of what ‘the right thing’ looks like. As has been stated the FEI Dressage Judge’s Handbook is pretty darn clear on outlining the movements, their requirements and execution and what the scores mean. It’s always been the application - be it the judges, the trainers, the riders - that’s causes the disconnect. When there were a significant number of judges who turned in their cards or retired from judging because they didn’t like the direction of where ‘modern’ dressage was going, instead of creating a wave of awareness that caused the industry to take notice and self-correct it instead has yielded a severe lack of good examples that put the horse first while demonstrating clear success (albeit often appears on the surface as the longer road) in a discipline that far outweigh the gains from the shift to utilizing short-cuts (both in regards to time and money). In other words without clear cut [higher] value placed on fair training practices and means/measurements to guarantee that is what’s being utilized to reach the goals, nothing is ever going to change - fast, ‘easy’, self-gratification is going to continue to trump all else. If higher value isn’t placed on preserving the longevity, sanity, along with the improved way of movement/expression of the horse in terms of measured success, dressage is always going to suffer at the hands of the greedy. The additional issue I see now is that there are fewer and fewer people around willing and able to demonstrate the good example let alone clearly define WHY it’s a good example.

It’s not just you. This is well stated and I completely agree with all that you wrote.

[Djones]

@pluvinel

So we digress to personal insults.

You insulted endless’ knowledge rather than answer her straightforward question, and it’s ok because you typed it backwards on your keyboard or something? maybe did it in a mirror, is that it? Because sdrawkcab it wasn’t an tlusni.

[pluvinel]

@Djones

You insulted endless’ knowledge rather than answer her straightforward question, and it’s ok because you typed it backwards on your keyboard or something? maybe did it in a mirror, is that it? Because sdrawkcab it wasn’t an tlusni.

Huh…please clarify what you mean. I have NO clue. Again, personal insults instead of productive discussion. I am willing to take responsibility for my actions if someone points out how I “insulted” anyone.

[Djones]

It’s been pointed out.

[skydy]

Off topic a bit, but it is interesting to see the difference in young grey horses.

In some TB sire lines, the differences in their grey yearlings is significant. It’s not a hard and fast rule for each stallion of course, but many grey yearlings by Tapit look like this; https://vimeo.com/762824182

Whereas many yearlings by the late stallion Arrogate looked like this;https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5xlBjoYXnw

Very different grey coloring from the get of each horse.

Sorry for the derail, just mentioning that grey has no all encompassing rules of progression.

[blue_heron]

@pluvinel

I have never…ever…seen a chestnut, bay, palomino, etc Lusitano turn dappled grey as they aged.

Frankly, I think I’ve seen a lot more Lusitanos than the average poster on this board, and while it does happen, most are black/brown or very dark bay before they grey out. There was one that was an awful muddy color with a lighter mane and tail that I guess was a palomino.

@K_VanOlst

But I guess I wouldn’t expect you to be able to grasp the nuance of that just like you seem to have trouble grasping the “nuance” of the FEI directives.

Geez…

[strangewings]

Maybe a productive task for the group here would be to post piaffe videos we do like and state why. I expect we have knowledgeable enough folks here to support this need at the end of exvet’s post:

@exvet

The additional issue I see now is that there are fewer and fewer people around willing and able to demonstrate the good example let alone clearly define WHY it’s a good example.

[endlessclimb]

That’s fair. Do they have similar studies for reining?

[pluvinel]

@strangewings

Maybe a productive task for the group here would be to post piaffe videos we do like and state why.

I thought I did. I gave the references to the FEI Judge’s Manual for how the piaffe met the criteria of the manual

@pluvinel

I compare the ride to the FEI requirements per your quote of the judging criteria, this ride seems to satisfy all the requirements stated by the FEI.

In principle, 1-the height of the toe of the raised forefoot should be level with the middle of the cannon bone of the other supporting foreleg . 2-The toe of the raised hind foot should reach just above the fetlock joint of the other supporting hind leg .
Criteria 1,2 - CHECK

@atlatl

1-Piaffe must always be animated by a lively impulsion and 2-characterised by perfect balance . While giving the impression of remaining in place, 3-there may be a visible inclination to advance , this being 4-displayed by the horse’s eager acceptance to move forward as soon as it is asked .

Criteria 1, 2,3,4, - CHECK

@pluvinel

The FEI regulations say the horse should be

In all the work, even at the halt, 1- , “on the bit”, but it also has to accept the bit. A Horse is said to be ‘on the bit’ when the neck is more or less raised and arched according to the stage of training and to the extension or collection of the pace, and when 2-it accepts the bridle with a light and consistent soft submissive contact , thereby chewing the bit with a quiet, sensitive mouth. 3-The head should remain in a steady position, as a rule with the nose line slightly in front of the vertical , with a supple poll as the highest point of the neck, and no resistance should be offered to the Athlete.

CHECK

Instead of discussing the points in the judging manual, I got slammed because a section of the exhibition of the piaffe was done backwards…and thus the thread took a left turn.

I would welcome a discussion of the piaffe done in the exhibition.

https://youtu.be/PdBkHEqatzA

[quietann]

From the perspective of the smurfiest of Smurfs, what I liked about that video is that the horse isn’t doing that weird little toe flick or jerk at the top of the step. So many of the big name horses do it, and I don’t know why.

[lorilu]

@endlessclimb

horse could learn if the rider completely abandoned the idea of it being a forward thinking movement further the current judging criteria?

But…. Shouldn’t the reinback also be “forward thinking”?

[lorilu]

@pluvinel

you have ever been around “grey horses”…you know that they are born black, get dappled then turn white in their later years.

I suppose you havnt seen the recent research regarding the greying gene and the speed at which a horse turns grey.
A friend has two Lips. They are half-siblings. One greyed out very quickly. The other is 9 and is still very dark.
And of course many greys don’t get dapples. Wish my guy did. He’s fleaspecked, as was the grey mare I once owned.
Also the gene has implications in the development of melanomas.

[lorilu]

Here is some of the research regarding speed of greying. Seems it depends on the number of repeating genetic units.
The Grey allele in horses is causing premature hair greying and susceptibility to melanoma. The causal mutation is a 4.6 kb tandem duplication in intron 6 of the Syntaxin 17 gene. A recent study demonstrated that the most common allele at the Grey locus ( G3 ) involves three tandem copies of this sequence, whilst a more rare allele ( G2 ) has two tandem copies and the wild-type allele ( G1 ) only one copy. The G3 allele is causing fast greying and high incidence of skin melanoma, whereas the G2 allele is causing slow greying and no obvious increase in melanoma incidence.

White horses - non-coding sequences drive premature hair greying and...

[strangewings]

Yes I know. That is why I picked piaffe rather than something else. I would rather look at a group of examples and have a robust comparative analysis than pick apart a single example.

[endlessclimb]

Sure. But it by definition is a movement in the reverse direction. Piaffe is specifically NOT a movement in the reverse direction. It’s such a severe fault that they called it out specifically.

[pluvinel]

@strangewings

I would rather look at a group of examples and have a robust comparative analysis than pick apart a single example

Here is Adelinde Cornelisen…piaffe is at 1:21

Adelinde Cornelissen and Jerich Parzival, scored a convincing victory in Odense.

Here is Totilas…piaffe at 1:10 and 6:30.

BEST DRESSAGE EVA- Edward Gal and Moorlands Totilas

Reiner Klimke piaffe at 00:06

Dr. Reiner Klimke training Piaffe and passage

If I had to rate the piaffes, …Klimke 1st, Cornelissen 2nd and Gal 3rd.

[Bogey2]

I know him as well and he is amazing! His current horse is to die for!

[jvanrens]

@pluvinel

was asked the age of the horse in the video. I said grey horses are typically born black and lighten over time. I did not mention a timeline, but since the horse is a Lusitano I estimated his age in teens (+ or -) based on how the grey Lusitanos I’ve know have changed color. The horse in the video is a dapple grey. I have never…ever…seen a chestnut, bay, palomino, etc Lusitano turn dappled grey as they aged.

Palomino going grey. Breed doesn’t matter. Edited to add, by the time this one is a yearling, you could likely hardly tell it was born palomino. Their manes tend to go black very quickly.

[skydy]

Interesting. I’ve never seen a grey/palomino foal IRL. So, mane and tail become black?