Opinion piece about current state of dressage and what some want to see changed

[blue_heron]

Agree that the horse is a bit tense. Lusitano are often tense over-achievers, and I think that’s what is going on here. The horse is sitting behind and then asked to sit more behind and go backward. Clearly he’s focusing hard. I would like to see a bit more forward-thinking-ness in the piaffe, even moving backward, similar to a rein back. But this is a constant struggle with Lusitano, which is why I said above that with these breeds I’m more interested in seeing the extension and passage. The passage is the weak point in the video.

ETA: I have seen horses come out of Jorge’s training very sensitive and light and I’ve also seen them come out a hot mess that’s taken years to unravel. Also call me a prude with my feet stuck in the mud but a 17hh Lusi that moves like a modern warmblood is not congruent with the breed standard and IMO undesirable.

[pluvinel]

@blue_heron

Also call me a prude with my feet stuck in the mud but a 17hh Lusi that moves like a modern warmblood is not congruent with the breed standard and IMO undesirable.

Agree with this…but talk to the APSL, they are the ones driving this breed goal. I have spoken with João Ralão Duarte who said the smaller cat-like working horses I like would not be approved today.

[jvanrens]

@Aussie_2020

You’re right, I’m actually thinking of all the horses in their stalls with their heads tied down between their legs. So not really their chests, about a foot lower.

I’m not even sure it that is still a thing anymore. With there being so many horses bred to go level I don’t see why it would be.

ETA: It never ceases to amaze me every time dressage proves to be effed up at the upper level, WP gets dragged into the discussion. I never should have been drawn into responding to it at this point. The head position isn’t what bothers me so much as the quality of gait. With both of them.

[Aussie_2020]

You’re right, I apologize.

[Mondo]

@jvanrens

A bay with a cream would be buckskin.

Not necessarily. I have a silver bay colt right now. He’s clearly bay, but has silver/blonde hairs over the black on his legs, within his 50% black mane, and most of his tail is blonde. Horse colors are very complex.

[jvanrens]

@Mondo

@jvanrens

A bay with a cream would be buckskin.

Not necessarily. I have a silver bay colt right now. He’s clearly bay, but has silver/blonde hairs over the black on his legs, within his 50% black mane, and most of his tail is blonde. Horse colors are very complex.

Silver isn’t cream, it’s a completely different gene and only modifies black. Cream only modifies red pigment. The only time it modifies black is when there is two copies of cream.

[shall]

@anon55755751

Maybe a productive task for the group here would be to post piaffe videos we do like and state why. I expect we have knowledgeable enough folks here to support this need at the end of exvet’s post:

Thanks for saying this. There is a lot of knowledge on this board, and we are here to learn, improve riding our horses. Let’s keep posts related to the topic at hand.

[shall]

@Aussie_2020

the type of horse todays dressage requires.

I agree. Days past horses had a higher percentage of hot blood. Currently, the average is ~22% hot. They can be less ardent. I like seeing an expressive and enthused pair work. That could just be me.

[pluvinel]

@shall

Days past horses had lower percentages of “warm” blood. Which is a different ride, than a higher percentage of hot blood coming forward.

Ahem…you are showing your age.

Back “in the day,” eg., as in post-WWII (1950’s to 1980’s), in the US, the horses that were predominantly ridden were TB’s. This was for everything from H/J, fox hunting, and dressage. The WB did not come to be the popular breed du jour until starting in the early 1980’s.

It was at that time that the emphasis on the “brilliance” in the gaits, eg., trots, started to be introduced into dressage judging. This trait relates to the trots that were bred into WB’s that were expected to be pretty much everything from pulling light coaches to being ridden. Even in the WB world, the Trakehner, with more “hot blood” was considered a riding horse vs the other WB breeds.

[RedHorses]

Do you realize that you just agreed with shallow post?

[pluvinel]

@RedHorses

Do you realize that you just agreed with shallow post?

Yes…and??? And what is a “shallow post?”

@shall is obviously “a person of a certain age” who was around horses before WB’s took over the world. I’m just acknowledging the fact that WB’s came into popularity as riding horse in the US starting circa 1980’s and that trend transferred to how dressage was judged.

[Cowgirl]

Apples/Oranges. I have seen some abuse in the WP world–heads tied up on poles, weighted reins, wearing blankets in the summer, etc. BUT, I don’t think it has anything to do with dressage–it’s a different sport. Sure, horse welfare is horse welfare, but you can’t fix the world. Dressage has lots of problems right now–we should focus on those if we ever hope to make any change.

[anon55755751]

@SBrentnall

He rides almost exclusively off the seat - so much so that it took 6 months before I could ride a straight line with my guy because he was so sensitive to weight changes.

I don’t know anything about this trainer at all, so I am not doubting what you say about him and the quality of his training, but that kind of sensitivity is one of the things Iberian breeds are known and loved for. However, it is a double-edged sword and exacerbates their tendency to go tight in the back and at the poll. It’s something you have to be conscientious about if you’re training a PRE or PSL. They can look “correct” in their shape without being through. They will react with speed and precision and be overachievers all day long - but to get them to do it with softness and come through the back takes attentive work!

What I am seeing in the Gabiel video that looks like tension to me is (1) The tempo in the piaffe appears quicker than in the backwards piaffe and passage, which gives the impression that he’s snatching his hind legs up rather than engaging his whole body in the full gymanstics of the movement. This may be an optical illusion? But it’s having an impact on my view nonetheless. (2) The poll and throatlatch area look completely fixed, with the neck compressed at the throatlatch - there’s very little motion there during the movement. There should be some undulation in motion with the gait, especially as he goes forward in the transition. That would indicate a greater degree of throughness.

It’s harder to describe what I’m seeing that looks like tension in the back, but that too is about stillness where there should be motion, or maybe some disparity between the movement behind the shoulders (less mobile) vs. the haunches (more mobile).

Some examples that show motion at the top of the neck and give more of an impression of throughness (to me):

1. This horse is even actually spooking in this environment, but is softer in the poll and less compressed in the neck: https://youtu.be/kE9k6WXGOpQ?t=189
2. https://youtu.be/VuoA40RLNJA?t=17
3. The first few seconds of this clip show the neck, though this may be a bad example of it
   https://youtu.be/ZaWsKg7C0VE?t=24
4. https://youtu.be/3vOYT1mC8HM?t=255
   (He does a piaffe in the pillars, turns around and does another the opposite way - both are difficult to see)

All of these also show about the same tempo, and there’s an impression of “ease” in the movement, even with the spooking horse. I could certainly pick apart other details, but the purpose of sharing these videos is to show examples of what I was not seeing in the Gabriel video.

[Aussie_2020]

Wow, people sure see things differently. I only looked at the first two videos. I saw horses that seemed very tense, mouth movement and frigid body. Most unpleasant to watch.

[gailbyrd]

@pluvinel

It was at that time that the emphasis on the “brilliance” in the gaits, eg., trots, started to be introduced into dressage judging. This trait relates to the trots that were bred into WB’s that were expected to be pretty much everything from pulling light coaches to being ridden. Even in the WB world, the Trakehner, with more “hot blood” was considered a riding horse vs the other WB breeds.

Yet at the time “SOMETHING” must have been missing from the rides as NO ONE as scoring in the 70-80% range (so no ride was “good”). Perhaps it WAS the “brilliance” the judges of old were looking for in the rides and why the scores never went above 80%

[Pehsness]

The third video was the nicest to my uneducated eye, but I don’t understand why it was only done in the pillars.

[anon55755751]

This is what is most interesting about the first video. The horse is tense. He is spooking. And yet, the poll, jaw, and throatlatch all have a range of motion unconstrained by the hand that lets the horse use his neck in balancing himself in the piaffe. That is specifically what I was NOT seeing in the Gabriel video.

But again, I am 100% willing to believe that the backwards piaffe is not setting the horse up to do his best piaffe. I would be very interested to know what the training philosophy is for the use of that exercise.

I will also say that I tried to find videos that had more than a few steps of piaffe at a time, which is why these are all demos/exposition rides and not competition rides.

[anon55755751]

It was an exhibition and the pillars give the audience a visual indication of how “on the spot” the piaffe is.

[RedHorses]

My apologies. Your post gave the impression of correction.

I apologize also for having recently purchased a new (undesired) cell phone after almost ten years, which is still catching me with the newer, sneakier, auto correct feature. I swear at it all the time.

My apologies also for the confusion my lapse caused you. I hope you will recognize auto corrections in anyone’s future posts before jumping all over them about it. Many are much less obvious than mine was, but a moment’s consideration usually reveals the intended word.

[pluvinel]

@gailbyrd

Yet at the time “SOMETHING” must have been missing from the rides as NO ONE as scoring in the 70-80% range (so no ride was “good”). Perhaps it WAS the “brilliance” the judges of old were looking for in the rides and why the scores never went above 80%

Could be…or not. Or is it the chicken or egg question?

Back in the 1980-90’s when “brilliance” started to be introduced into judging is the time when WB’s started to take prominence in dressage. WB breeders are predominantly in Europe. The FEI is based in Europe (Switzerland), so perhaps…just perhaps…the breeders lobbied for judging criteria to give advantage to their larger, heavier (relative to TB’s…think Granat, Gifted), big moving horses and advantage their type of horse…just sayin’…perhaps.

IMHO “back in the day” there was no formal “standard” for judges to judge…as is now done in the L-Judges Training. You could be grandfathered in as a judge based on your riding accomplishments. IIRC judge accreditation was rather informal back in the 1970’s (I was there) so the fact that there were few/no rides in the 80% could be that, as shown by this thread, dressage people are hyper critical and the judges were content to give marks of 8-Good and 7-Fairly Good as their high marks…just perhaps.