Philippe Karl was doing a demo of Baroque riding. I agree that #3 video was nicest. I don’t see anything calm about the other two.
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Totally agree with this assesment. The 3rd video is worth watching. Philippe Karl does nice work.
No problem. This is the problem with written communication vs a conversation. All good.
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Did the tests not have directives for each movement? While it is true “judge training” is a fairly “new” thing here in the US, did not the judges of old get together to talk about what they thought each movement should entail?
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Talk they did…I attended one of the certification workshops at Gladstone (while it was still USET HQ) in the early 1990’s. But there was a lot of latitude afforded to judges to apply their judgement.
As far as
I will have to see if I old test, but “quality of the gaits” was not in the directives. Gaits were judged in the collective marks at the end.
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And yet none were giving out 8’s, 9’s, 10’s to the great riders of old. What was missing in the rides?
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What/Why? I think I already answered that.
These judges were tough old nuts, typically former cavalry. A lot of the civilian rider had been trained under the former cavalry ethos.
Those guys were also giving 2’s, 3’s, and 4’s…something which you rarely see now and which is why the final test score was not as high as the current grade-inflated scores are.
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Yes, they were looking for SOMETHING that wasn’t present in the rides of yore so they DIDN’T give out 8’s, 9’s or 10’s.
As far as todays judging, watch what a line of tempi’s receive if a change is missed (hint: it’s not a 6 or 7 as long as the judge didn’t miss the missed change). Not many lines of tempi’s get above an 8. And if a piaffe isn’t really a piaffe? Yep, 4’s and below are dished out.
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For the second video, are you referring to the in hand or the ridden work? The in hand work was the intended example.
Pretty sure Gladstone is still USET HQ.
Side note, we dropped by there on a whim after trying a horse in the area and the staff was most gracious about opening up the trophy room and the facility so we could walk around. Well worth a visit is anyone is in the area.
I thought that is what I said???
That is your interpretation.
According to the FEI Dressage judging manual, scores of 1,2,3 are given for severe resistances…then there are caveats for whether a rider made a counting mistake…etc. Basically I have never seen swinging legs by the rider severely marked.
So we see things differently…that is ok. I think there is score inflation and that basic errors (like a halt not or barely executed) are not marked severely enough.
I don’t think they were looking for something that wasn’t present, I think they were just harsher with points. We can’t say the judges of old were looking for today’s type of movers.
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Your using “while” makes it sound as though it no longer is, to me anyway. I don’t want to speak for anyone else.
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Would be interesting to see what words corresponded to the numbers back in the day. If they are the same as today, then none of the old riders were “good” (8).
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Interesting, my impression is that previously there was score deflation in that pure, although less brilliant gaits, were scored lower than per the actual intended meaning of scores.
One of the criticisms I received while going through the L program was that I scored too harshly. Frequently, I’d score gaits a 6 while the instructor would ask me “why NOT a 7.” I had to recalibrate.
Depending on where a halt occurs in a test, there may be other elements to that movement’s score which if executed really well could result in a higher score than expected. At the end of the day, it’s one person’s opinion on one particular day.
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I think this is an accurate statement. For one, there were not too many WB’s in dressage competitins in the US in the 1970’s…so how could judges look for something that wasn’t in play?
And the dressage tests of the 1970’s up to more recent times did not include “quality of the xxxx (gait)” in each and every movement. The gaits were scored at the end of the test in the collective marks.
I really quit paying attention to all the changes about 10 years ago, but dressage tests have changed substantially over time.
I understand your points. But having ridden several of his horses, that is not my experience at all. I found them completely willing to work over the back and to stretch down as far as I asked.
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Here is a video of the 76 Olympics. Both riders scored just shy of 75% so had to get a few scores above 7…
(Also includes a missed change…)
My memories of the 90’s are that the average pair lacked the precision shown here, and may or may not have been fancier movers. Straight is straight. Rhythm is perfect. Halts are immobile. Everything looks balanced and easy.
My impression of what has happened since about 2000 is that we have allowed brilliance to outweigh precision in scoring. The top scoring pairs should show both, but I would rather have those scoring mid-70s have less flash and more precision than more flash and less precision.
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