Opinion piece about current state of dressage and what some want to see changed

[pluvinel]

@gailbyrd

Yet at the time “SOMETHING” must have been missing from the rides as NO ONE as scoring in the 70-80% range (so no ride was “good”). Perhaps it WAS the “brilliance” the judges of old were looking for in the rides and why the scores never went above 80%

Could be…or not. Or is it the chicken or egg question?

Back in the 1980-90’s when “brilliance” started to be introduced into judging is the time when WB’s started to take prominence in dressage. WB breeders are predominantly in Europe. The FEI is based in Europe (Switzerland), so perhaps…just perhaps…the breeders lobbied for judging criteria to give advantage to their larger, heavier (relative to TB’s…think Granat, Gifted), big moving horses and advantage their type of horse…just sayin’…perhaps.

IMHO “back in the day” there was no formal “standard” for judges to judge…as is now done in the L-Judges Training. You could be grandfathered in as a judge based on your riding accomplishments. IIRC judge accreditation was rather informal back in the 1970’s (I was there) so the fact that there were few/no rides in the 80% could be that, as shown by this thread, dressage people are hyper critical and the judges were content to give marks of 8-Good and 7-Fairly Good as their high marks…just perhaps.

[pluvinel]

@Pehsness

The third video was the nicest to my uneducated eye, but I don’t understand why it was only done in the pillars.

Philippe Karl was doing a demo of Baroque riding. I agree that #3 video was nicest. I don’t see anything calm about the other two.

[pluvinel]

@Aussie_2020

Wow, people sure see things differently. I only looked at the first two videos. I saw horses that seemed very tense, mouth movement and frigid body. Most unpleasant to watch.

Totally agree with this assesment. The 3rd video is worth watching. Philippe Karl does nice work.

[pluvinel]

@RedHorses

My apologies. Your post gave the impression of correction.

No problem. This is the problem with written communication vs a conversation. All good.

[gailbyrd]

@pluvinel

IMHO “back in the day” there was no formal “standard” for judges to judge

Did the tests not have directives for each movement? While it is true “judge training” is a fairly “new” thing here in the US, did not the judges of old get together to talk about what they thought each movement should entail?

[pluvinel]

@gailbyrd

did not the judges of old get together to talk about what they thought each movement should entail?

Talk they did…I attended one of the certification workshops at Gladstone (while it was still USET HQ) in the early 1990’s. But there was a lot of latitude afforded to judges to apply their judgement.

As far as

@gailbyrd

Did the tests not have directives for each movement?

I will have to see if I old test, but “quality of the gaits” was not in the directives. Gaits were judged in the collective marks at the end.

[gailbyrd]

@pluvinel

But there was a lot of latitude afforded to judges to apply their judgement

And yet none were giving out 8’s, 9’s, 10’s to the great riders of old. What was missing in the rides?

[pluvinel]

@gailbyrd

And yet none were giving out 8’s, 9’s, 10’s to the great riders of old. What was missing in the rides?

What/Why? I think I already answered that.

@pluvinel

the judges were content to give marks of 8-Good and 7-Fairly Good as their high marks…just perhaps.

These judges were tough old nuts, typically former cavalry. A lot of the civilian rider had been trained under the former cavalry ethos.

Those guys were also giving 2’s, 3’s, and 4’s…something which you rarely see now and which is why the final test score was not as high as the current grade-inflated scores are.

[gailbyrd]

@pluvinel

These judges were tough old nuts, typically former cavalry. A lot of the civilian rider had been trained under the former cavalry ethos.

Yes, they were looking for SOMETHING that wasn’t present in the rides of yore so they DIDN’T give out 8’s, 9’s or 10’s.

As far as todays judging, watch what a line of tempi’s receive if a change is missed (hint: it’s not a 6 or 7 as long as the judge didn’t miss the missed change). Not many lines of tempi’s get above an 8. And if a piaffe isn’t really a piaffe? Yep, 4’s and below are dished out.

[strangewings]

For the second video, are you referring to the in hand or the ridden work? The in hand work was the intended example.

[atlatl]

@pluvinel

Talk they did…I attended one of the certification workshops at Gladstone (while it was still USET HQ) in the early 1990’s. But there was a lot of latitude afforded to judges to apply their judgement.

Pretty sure Gladstone is still USET HQ.

Side note, we dropped by there on a whim after trying a horse in the area and the staff was most gracious about opening up the trophy room and the facility so we could walk around. Well worth a visit is anyone is in the area.

[pluvinel]

@atlatl

@pluvinel

Talk they did…I attended one of the certification workshops at Gladstone ( while it was still USET HQ ) in the early 1990’s. But there was a lot of latitude afforded to judges to apply their judgement.

Pretty sure Gladstone is still USET HQ.

I thought that is what I said???

[pluvinel]

@gailbyrd

Yes, they were looking for SOMETHING that wasn’t present in the rides of yore so they DIDN’T give out 8’s, 9’s or 10’s.

That is your interpretation.

@gailbyrd

As far as todays judging, watch what a line of tempi’s receive if a change is missed (hint: it’s not a 6 or 7 as long as the judge didn’t miss the missed change).

According to the FEI Dressage judging manual, scores of 1,2,3 are given for severe resistances…then there are caveats for whether a rider made a counting mistake…etc. Basically I have never seen swinging legs by the rider severely marked.

So we see things differently…that is ok. I think there is score inflation and that basic errors (like a halt not or barely executed) are not marked severely enough.

[Aussie_2020]

I don’t think they were looking for something that wasn’t present, I think they were just harsher with points. We can’t say the judges of old were looking for today’s type of movers.

[Aussie_2020]

Your using “while” makes it sound as though it no longer is, to me anyway. I don’t want to speak for anyone else.

[atlatl]

@Aussie_2020

Your using “while” makes it sound as though it no longer is, to me anyway. I don’t want to speak for anyone else.

Same here. Just a disconnect @pluvinel.

[gailbyrd]

@Aussie_2020

I don’t think they were looking for something that wasn’t present, I think they were just harsher with points. We can’t say the judges of old were looking for today’s type of movers.

Would be interesting to see what words corresponded to the numbers back in the day. If they are the same as today, then none of the old riders were “good” (8).

[atlatl]

@pluvinel

… I think there is score inflation and that basic errors (like a halt not or barely executed) are not marked severely enough.

Interesting, my impression is that previously there was score deflation in that pure, although less brilliant gaits, were scored lower than per the actual intended meaning of scores.

One of the criticisms I received while going through the L program was that I scored too harshly. Frequently, I’d score gaits a 6 while the instructor would ask me “why NOT a 7.” I had to recalibrate.

Depending on where a halt occurs in a test, there may be other elements to that movement’s score which if executed really well could result in a higher score than expected. At the end of the day, it’s one person’s opinion on one particular day.

[pluvinel]

@Aussie_2020

We can’t say the judges of old were looking for today’s type of movers.

I think this is an accurate statement. For one, there were not too many WB’s in dressage competitins in the US in the 1970’s…so how could judges look for something that wasn’t in play?

And the dressage tests of the 1970’s up to more recent times did not include “quality of the xxxx (gait)” in each and every movement. The gaits were scored at the end of the test in the collective marks.

I really quit paying attention to all the changes about 10 years ago, but dressage tests have changed substantially over time.

[SBrentnall]

I understand your points. But having ridden several of his horses, that is not my experience at all. I found them completely willing to work over the back and to stretch down as far as I asked.