Opinions on DHH crosses for jumping?

[DownYonder]

@Warmblood1

On another note, there are always going to be ways to cheat the system. However, the registry is going to inquire how the foal is conceived such as via their insemination forms. Registries are quite aware of which stallions are producing in what ways and eye brows will be raised with particular stallions who are known to be deceased or of very poor semen quality which would require ICSI. WB registries are more aware of the approved stallions that are producing versus a registry such as AQHA where licensing isn’t required, etc.

Ha, great minds and all that! I was going to post pretty much the same comment about registry officials being aware of the “marginal” breeding availability of various stallions. (I was even going to use the same phrase about raised eyebrows - LOL).

It’s also good to keep in mind that this is ONE of the Euro registries, and to my knowledge, it is the only warmblood registry in Sweden, so its policies are going to be even easier to enforce as the breeders and many/most vets are probably known entities to the registry.

And I agree with the poster who said it would be much harder to enforce something like this in NA. Yeah, a breeder could do a banned procedure such as ICSI and pay off a vet to illegally and unethically sign off on a breeding certificate, and registry officials may be none the wiser given the huge geographic size of NA and the larger numbers of vets and registries. But even so, most warmblood registry officials are going to look at the name of the sire and go “Hmmm” and ask some hard questions - and may even put the breeder on an official or unofficial “watch list.” And again - how many vets are going to be willing to risk their licenses to willingly participate in such scams? Sure there may be a few here or there, but the vast majority of them are going to say, “Hell no, I’m not putting my career on the line. That insemination was done by Dr. Such and Such - get her to sign the danged certificate.”

[DownYonder]

@Aussie_2020

You answered my question completely. I was wondering about the part of this conversation that talked about a straw being split and used in several mares. I didn’t understand how they all could be registered but I get it now. Thank you!

Sure, that part is easy. All the foals are DNA matched against the reported sire and dam. So yeah, a breeder could split a dose and inseminate multiple mares and register all the resulting foals once the DNA analysis verifies the parentage. It happens regularly, esp. in NA where breeders learned long ago they could use less than a full breeding dose and get a viable pregnancy, so they would use the remaining portion of the dose in another mare or even the same mare at a later date (assuming they are using frozen semen). Even with fresh semen, some breeders have split a dose and inseminated multiple mares at the same time whose cycles are in sync - i.e., they are ovulating at the same time.

[vxf111]

My guess is that the registry is far more concerned about what is happening in Sweden, a smaller place where the registry has a lot more knowledge and control, and less so what is happening in North America. But the registry rules apply to everyone, regardless of location. With some exceptions, European registries are more interested in breeding there as compared to breeding here (there are some exceptions!). My foal is Selle Francais and no one of there gives a flying fig about anything here Still, the same rules apply here as apply there, even if they don’t much care. Which is fine, they don’t have to care about what’s happening here. I’m not exactly following things in France

[ninakl]

Re: ICSI. Registries can decide exactly what procedures they will allow for whatever reasons they think. Let’s not bring social license to operate into this discussion and leave it for the performance area. There are very real arguments against allowing ISCI other than the mare’s discomfort. Breeding backwards is part of it. Proliferation of offspring of deceased stallions as we see in this thread does nothing to advance the registry’s breeding objectives.One could argue that the horses of today are superior to the horses of yesteryear I certainly think this is true.

I can see a scenario where vets refuse to do ICSI. Look at the small animal industry. Even if not banned vets will not declaw cats, crop ears or dock puppy tails. Or the country itself could ban the practice,

If a stallion is so infertile that ICSI is the best way to try to get a mare pregnant why would you even want him in the breeding pool? I see other registries following suit.

[jvanrens]

@DownYonder

Even with fresh semen, some breeders have split a dose and inseminated multiple mares at the same time whose cycles are in sync - i.e., they are ovulating at the same time.

Unless things have changed with AQHA, you’d be owing the stallion owner a stud fee for all those foals if you want them to show up on the report they submit to AQHA. Only the foals of the mares on the report are eligible for registration last I checked.

[skydy]

@Simkie

But that’s my point. Plenty of breeders do their own basic breeding work, so they WILL be the appropriate party to provide proof. What’s preventing those people from falsifying? You seem irked that I’m asking, but I’m just curious how it’ll work, and how they’re planning on preventing fraud

I’m not at all irked. I’m sorry if I came across that way.

I was under the impression that ICSI takes more equipment and veterinary intervention and knowledge than AI. Maybe some of the big European breeders are equipped for the procedure (Schockemohle et all?), but they are breeding a vast amount of quality mares.

If I remember correctly Kate Shearer uses a veterinary service to perform the procedure on the harness mares she uses to breed to jumper stallions.

The mares themselves need not be inspected with KWPN, and after all of this breeding, one 1st premium foal has resulted. None of her older stock have been inspected? and the colt that was awarded 1st premium she left intact because she was going to present him as a stallion prospect. Has that happened yet?

Now we can guess why she is using this method. Poor quality semen, perhaps bought from random sources.

[bugsynskeeter1]

@ninakl

If a stallion is so infertile that ICSI is the best way to try to get a mare pregnant why would you even want him in the breeding pool? I see other registries following suit.

Many are not doing it for stallion infertility reasons. I know of several that are using it as their only method of “ET” now. I wish AQHA would limit it, but fat chance of that happening.

[axl]

Pardon my ignorance, but what is the difference between ET and ICSI?

[axl]

And yes, I can look it up, but I’m on a very limited lunch break and I am positive someone here can break it down fast

[skydy]

ET takes an embryo from the mare. ICSI takes an unferilized egg.

[bugsynskeeter1]

The Difference Between Embryo Transfer and ICSI

With embryo transfer, conception (fertilization) is taking place in the donor mare. This is accomplished through normal means of insemination or natural service. Between six and half and eight days later the uterus of that mare is flushed to recover the conceptus or embryo and it is then transferred to the recipient mare (or can be frozen for future transfer).

When using the ICSI procedure, the egg (oocyte) is harvested from the follicle on the mare’s ovary and that egg is fertilized with the injection of a sperm cell in the laboratory. The resulting conceptus is then nurtured and grown in the laboratory until it is approximately at the stage of a six to seven day embryo. It is then transferred to a recipient mare to carry that pregnancy to term.

So with one process, fertilization is taking place normally and we are harvesting an embryo (ET) and the other we are harvesting the egg prior to breeding the mare (ICSI). Our topic in this article is embryo transfer so we will leave the egg harvesting and in vitro fertilization for another day.

Quote from - https://info.selectbreeders.com/blog/embryo-transfer-and-frequently-asked-questions

ETA - you can get one, maybe 2 embryos from a traditional flush. Your chances of multiples is higher with ICSI. I know one that got 5 foals from one retrieval.

[skydy]

Certainly a more detailed explanation the mine. Thanks!

[axl]

Thank you!

[jvanrens]

@bugsynskeeter1

@ninakl

If a stallion is so infertile that ICSI is the best way to try to get a mare pregnant why would you even want him in the breeding pool? I see other registries following suit.

Many are not doing it for stallion infertility reasons. I know of several that are using it as their only method of “ET” now. I wish AQHA would limit it, but fat chance of that happening.

Why limit the number of foals from one mare when a stallion can have a couple hundred foals in a season I think is the usual argument especially if one has an exceptional mare.

[Libera]

I’m pretty sure all breeding in Sweden by law, has to be done by licensed veterinarians. Not like the US where you are allowed to do it yourself.

[SpicyPRE]

@DownYonder

The article also mentions how very hard the procedure is on the mare. It boggles my mind that someone would do this repeatedly, cycle after cycle, year after year, to a mare they supposedly love.

This and the mare was boarded at the repro vet. How much time KS actually spend with Reba? Its always sad to lose a horse, but it appears that she sad to lose the ovaries/egg dispenser not the horse.
Basically my tractor in another state broke down is a fitting analogy.

[Simkie]

@skydy

I was under the impression that ICSI takes more equipment and veterinary intervention and knowledge than AI. Maybe some of the big European breeders are equipped for the procedure (Schockemohle et all?), but they are breeding a vast amount of quality mares.

I am not, and have never, suggested that a breeder is doing their own ICSI.

@Simkie

I am not suggesting that anyone other than a specialist would be doing ICSI. If a breeder who does their own basic repro work sends one mare off for ICSI, and then represents that mare as one that they themselves inseminated, along with their other mares that they themselves inseminated, who’s to know? Even if a vet has to sign off on it, it would not be difficult or even terribly unusual to have a generalist, local vet that would be a different person from the ICSI vet.

[skydy]

I’m sorry that my post wasn’t clear. I was thinking about the issue you raised about unprincipled veterinarians signing off on a ICSI that they did not do and the Vet that did it, not signing that they did the procedure.

I thought perhaps that the huge European breeding operations might be able to get away with it because they probably have the means, and the veterinary staff on site and in their employ, to do it but I can’t imagine that any of them would go to such lengths to fraudulently get a foal registered in the Swedish Warmblood books. Perhaps I’m being naive?

I think the prohibition would be enforceable for the most part, especially in Sweden. In the U.S. not so much. Of course I don’t know the ratio of corrupt repro veterinarians between Sweden and the U.S. but we are not as strict about breeding, cloning etc… the Jockey club is the only entity in the U.S. that is fairly hard core about it.

I also wonder how many people do what Shearer is doing, using unproven mares with questionable conformation, to harvest eggs for ICSI using semen from whatever source, to try to make a buck. Surely there aren’t that many people doing this? I really hope not.

[Simkie]

@skydy

I’m sorry that my post wasn’t clear. I was thinking about the issue you raised about unprincipled veterinarians signing off on a ICSI that they did not do and the Vet that did it, not signing that they did the procedure.

No. I feel like I’ve stated this pretty clearly…

If a breeder who does their own basic repro work sends one mare off for ICSI, and then represents that mare as one that they themselves inseminated, along with their other mares that they themselves inseminated, who’s to know?

Many breeders in this country do their own basic repro work of ultrasound and insemination and I think some even do embryo transfer? If a registry is asking for data on insemination, the breeder is the one providing, because they themselves are doing the work.

If the breeder says “I inseminated this mare traditionally myself” but actually sent the mare out for ICSI…how could that fraud possibly be identified?

Yeah, there are sub fertile stallions out there that can’t get pregnancies via traditional methods. Those are easy picks. But what about the stallions who are getting mares pregnant the “usual” way, who are being used for ICSI due to mare owner preference? Those foals won’t raise the same questions.

If @Libera is correct that only vets are doing breeding work in Sweden, then fraud certainly seems less likely there, and that connects some dots on how they could see this restriction working. But that’s not how it works here in the US and restricting breeding to veterinarians only would be a big deal for many, due to cost or even availability of services.

[Kinda_Kooky]

Interrupting discussions to point out another nice DHH mare that has a bonus on board if anyone needs one of these. (NOT KS)

2263 - Dutch harness mare exposed to stud - Bowie Livestock

She’s came in with another that has a big ankle.

Some lucky duck could get four for the price of two.

This unlucky duck is going to get off that website now and go work on the garden before something bad happens and a horse is added to my cart.

Someone please buy the black mare and give me the foal for Christmas. Please thanks bye.