I did laugh at her answer about the price. Very witty of her to say under 20K when the group the horse is listed in is called Warmblood Horses Under 20K.
Clearly KS was trying to be funny there.
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Thatâs what really confuses me. Anyone can breed to Royce or Chacco Blue II or any other big name stallion. But only Kate is doing this on a big time scale using DHH mares because she believes she has unlocked a new and superior cross. She should be screaming her mare lines from the roof, yet she consistently hides that critical point in her ads. If using DHH lines is the cornerstone of your breeding program, you might want to at least mention that to potential buyers.
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She is just shady and skuzzy about the whole thing. I mean, maybe, some of these mares have something more to them. But we will never know. Just another case of her thinking she is smarter than everyone else. oh well.
To me it is quite telling (for her ads and others). If the ad says KWPN and nothing else that tells me it is DHH. If the ad says KWPN and has the bloodlines nowhere in the ad it is DHH. If the ad touts the stallion and says nothing about the mare and its breeding, it is half DHH. However it is usually pretty easy to spot the conformation and figure out if it is DHH due to the longer backs, long flat croups and lower set necks. Not to mention video. If it has DHH breeding and that is your breeding program - why do you hide it?
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I donât think she is proud of using DHH as the mare, I think sheâs trying to breed color and hoping people will pay for it because itâs âcute.â Well, and I assume a DHH mare is cheaper than a warmblood mare. But I think itâs mostly about the color.
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They can be purchased very inexpensive if lower quality, etc. Iâve seen the really nice, well bred ones go in the high 5 figures/low 6 figures. Of course many are lower priced.
A nicely bred DHH is still a nice horse, fantastic brains and lovely pulling a carriage/cart. I love their brains and personalities.
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You took the words right out of my mouth. She also made it seem like the inspectors endorsed her program which was really wild.
The BWP aspect is interesting. Her mares will have to be inspected and approved and I canât really see that going very well considering BWP is very much geared towards a certain breeding direction and none of that includes harness lines.
The irony is also not lost on me that she is calling the De Niro foal a âKWPN Dutch WB.â The Dutch WB part is assumed by stating the foal is registered KWPN. Duh.
ETA: Also want to mention my experiences with Drew have always been pleasant. Sometimes communication with the registries is not great but Drew has always been on top of communication and has always answered my questions in a timely manner and provided assistance when needed. KWPN has a lot of great folks in their organization despite what KS may wish to portray.
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Thatâs the thing right - a reputable breeder will put the mare front and center. Even Kateâs babies show that the mare is MOST of the offspring, thereâs very little of the sires evident in these youngsters.
I talked to a great breeder whose main broodmare had an injury young and never went on to have a career - the mare has stellar, consistently amateur friendly lines though. Additionally, the breeder has tons of video of the mare being handled, trimmed, trailer loaded, played with in the pasture, etc. The bloodlines of the mare + the manners on the ground + previous full siblings going under saddle in rated arenas = pretty good confidence in her product.
AND, the price makes sense for what sheâs producing. The first baby was much cheaper than each consecutive sibling as the mare has proven herself as a broodmare.
OTOH, a sketchy breeder will hide the mare, banking on a famous stallion + cute baby (most babies are cute) to make a sale. After all, only the money matters.
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This is the problem many people have had with her for YEARS. Her breeding program and direction is specific but she is deceptive in her advertising. I have come to believe that this is not an accident. A DHH mare with zero performance record is not valuable so she hides that with the hope that the prospective purchaser will be wowed by the stallion. Sadly this has worked for her in the past.
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I asked upthread about how many horses were sold and have been shown. I actually asked that months ago, but I asked again yesterday. The breeder checked in to this thread later that day but didnât respond.
I had a little time to burn while doing something else so I poked around on USEF.
These seem to be the horses bred and still listed as owned by the breeder (based on USEF registrations)
PRECEDENT SET KG (5668165) 2020
REALITY CHECK KG (5730182) 2021
ROYAL ARROGANCE KG (5730184) 2021
FABULOUS A.G. STARLIGHT 2021 (she didnât breed this one, it appears to be a broodmare)
SCHACCO LATTE KG (5829151) 2022
SHOULD BE DANCING KG (5813566) 2022
SKYâS THE LIMIT KG (5803079) 2022
SMALL TOWN CELEBRITY KG (5797780) 2022
SOLEMNLY SWEAR KG (5800692) 2022
CHACCO ECLAIR KG (5845359) 2023
THE GODFATHER KG (5856979) 2023
THE WHOLE NINE YARDS KG (5856984) 2023
TIME FOR PLEASURE KG (5845383) 2023
ULANI KG (5945691) 2024
URRACO KG (5992653) 2024
(one foal is also reported as being deceased, TAXED ON LUXURY KG (5845368) 2023)
As best as I can tell, in the history of her Famous stallions x DHH program, the following have sold (she does seem to have sold some arabian and half arabians)âŠ
KWANTUM LEAP (5616545) 2015 has shown 4 times in the jumpers 1.10 and below
LITTLE BIT OF LUCK KG (5870411) 2016 has shown 2 times in the jumpers 1.0 and below
RAS DESHEN KG (5730119) 2021 no show record
REMEMBER THE NAME KG (5724490) 2021 no show record
REMINGTON KG (5724486) 2021 no show record
SIC ITUR AD ASTRA KG (5813578) 2022 no show record
SIC VITA EST KG (5945680) 2022 no show record
SYLVIANNA CNS (5806454) 2022 no show record
THE LAST JEDI KG (5845367) 2023 no show record
THE PHANTOM ROLLS KG (5856983) 2023 no show record
If this is right, since 2015 there have been just shy of 30 horses produced, 10 have sold (so about 1/3 of whatâs been produced) and the grand total of show evidence to suggest this cross is a success is two low level jumpers. Thatâs a LOT OF MONEY in stud fees to produce 2 low level jumpers. Iâm sure those horses are nice horses, but plenty of horses can be low level horses that get around and donât win in the jumpers. I wouldnât consider it a huge accomplishment to produce something like that.
What is more concerning is how many horses the breeding program is still carrying. By USEFâs records, it appears that the breeder has roughly 18 youngstock that have been produced and have not sold. Presumably with more bred now, coming in 2025. Not a single one that is still owed by the breeder has any show record. Many of them are going to be old enough that they will need to be started soon to be sold. What is she going to do with all these horses? How can someone adequately take care of this many horses, making sure theyâre getting the handling they need to prepare them for being broke? Why would they be any more saleable now than they were before when they didnât sell? How can this breeding program possibly be working? It just doesnât seem to make sense to have a business where you are able to sell only 1/3 of the horses you produce and you just keep adding to the numbers year after year. And this doesnât even take into account the carrying costs of dams, which she also owns, which arenât USEF registered (there seem to be at many, though maybe some have sold-- NEVER HAVE I EVER KG, JDâS BIANCA, IVANKA, BECAUSE I SAID SO KG, FLEUR DELCOR KG, HAKUNA MATATA KG, NARNIA KG, BOARDWALK KG, NOW YOU SEE ME KG âI know one recently died but I donât know which one). She still seems to own at least a handful of the broodmares.
How can it be a viable business model to carry 25+ horses having sold around 10?
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More than the mare not having a show record, none of her offspring do. That would be my main concern.
There is a COTH member who has shared some pictures and videos of his DHH crosses actually being useful (besides cute at inspections), now if I was in the market, Iâd take him seriously.
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The naming is not lost on meâŠ
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Most have likely been sold, but not to anyone who cared enough about their USEF number to bother updating it. So either not into a show home or theyâll lose their heritage somewhere along the way (meaning dam line) because it wonât help with resale value.
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holy moly
thanks for the research - hard to find words for this
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For me, this goes back to a post after a chacco blue foal was born and her saying âonly 11 more to goâ. Then for her to say 10 have sold would leave 2 left, yet there were 6 at the inspection. Math is not my strong point but something just isnât matching up.
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How are we to read the exchange with the very patient KWPN admin? It sounds like KS flounced out of the registry threatening to take her foals elsewhere for approval.
I canât see how BWP is going to work because her foals really only qualify for attending KWPN assessment because the DHH mares are a subset of the KWPN registry. I canât imagine any other European registry accepting this conformation or pedigree. Youâd be better off breeding to OTTB mares.
Maybe she can get papers from the Canadian Sport horse Association or similar.
Do we actually know how her young stock did at this assessment?
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Do you think? The breeder bothered to report one that is deceased and another that was sold but that owner didnât USEF register it after sale. The breeder isnât shy about touting achievements (real or exaggerated). Where are the âcongratulations to the new ownerâ posts etc. if these horses have all sold? Iâm inclined to think most of these have NOT sold and are just chucked out in a field somewhere. More than a few have been âretained for future breeding,â which is a real headscratcher because theyâre out of mares that have done nothing to prove themselves⊠and they themselves donât seem to be doing anything to prove themselves⊠who needs a SECOND generation of that?
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You are correct @vxf111 Dollars to donuts, IF anything has sold it would have been crammed down our throats ad nauseum just like the inspection win but 80 times worse.
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This one just went Reserve National Champion Half Arabian Sport Horse in Hand Yearling Colts/Geldings at Arabian Sport Horse Nationals earlier this week.
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Two tongue in cheek comments:
1 - How many entries were in the class?
2 - In general, like DHH, Arabians tend to have fairly level croups and are often out behind as well. So that kind of conformation and movement is going to be very familiar to an Arabian judge and not something the typical Arabian judge is going to dis. But if she crossed a DHH mare to an Arabian to get a sport horse - just wow. Where is that girl getting her breeding advice? (And this is coming from someone who is generally a fan of Arabians, esp. when they have been crossed with warmbloods to produce a sport horse.)
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