Opinions on Green Lesson Horses

[Mother_of_Arabians]

So recently I’ve been taking lessons away from my usual barn with switching disciplines. I’ve been riding one horse very similar to my own there and this last time the trainer had me ride the four year old greenie who is also a rescue and I don’t think is totally trained, which I was fine with doing. As we get going and got cantering I gave the normal canter cue and he starts flipping his head and crow hopping. The trainer proceeds to tell me I’m not giving the cue just right for him. We finally fix the problem and after cantering at the end I lost my stirrup which freaked the horse out so I got off balance and he freaked out even more and I ended up getting dumped pretty bad.
Apparently this has happened to multiple people on this horse of not being perfect especially if they’re learning and getting dumped. The trainer then tells me she likes to have students ride this horse because it helps them with bad habits and that if they get dumped by this horse it’s the riders fault. I’m sorry but in my opinion shouldn’t a lesson horse help you in a way that if you do something wrong they’re forgiving and the rider doesn’t get hurt? I’m not a huge fan of dead heads either but for green riders this just sounds plain dangerous. I’ve always been taught that GREEN+GREEN=black and blue so why on earth would you use a greenie as a lesson horse? With this happening to me as an experienced rider, putting green riders on a horse like this sounds like a disaster waiting to happen.

what are your guys opinions on this topic? Should green horses like this be used for lessons?

[ClassyJumper]

I loved riding the greenies during lessons but I also know some riders that were never put on the young/quirky ones. If you are uncomfortable riding this particular horse just tell your instructor.

I don’t there is anything inherently bad about having a green lesson horse for more experienced riders to learn on, otherwise how would any of us learn to work with young horses? But its completely within your rights to say you don’t want to ride this horse.

[SuzieQNutter]

I don’t really agree. It is not good for horse or rider.

The riders are in danger with falling off and thus being seriously injured, especially if they are not good enough to canter without losing a stirrup.

The horse is learning that he can dump riders and his learning is being interrupted with incorrect aides etc.

[Equkelly]

It really depends on your skill level to be honest. For beginners, yes lesson horses should be pretty well much broke and super forgiving of your mistakes. But the more you advance, your scope of horses you’re able to ride should broaden as well. As you move up, even “lesson horses” will have less of a sense of humor with your mistakes.

It sounds like you’re looking at this like a black and white issue. This idea of “totally trained” versus “not totally trained” isn’t realistic. It’s a spectrum. Also IMO, the horses age and rescue status shouldn’t mean anything. I’ve seen dead broke 4 year olds and super green 25 year olds.

I think riding the greenies humbles you. I’m not saying learn to jump on a horse that’s also learning to jump. I’m not saying beginners should be riding babies. And I’m not saying you should be riding dangerous and unsafe horses. But I think that it’s really valuable to ride horses that aren’t all just push buttons.

In the situation you described, you talked about how “you gave him the normal canter cue”. Horses, even lesson horses, are not one size fits all. Some horses you need to set up for the canter a little differently. Every horse is going to take a different amount of leg. You can’t just have the mindset where you think because you did “abc” the horse should do “123”.

To me, it sounds like your trainer knows what she’s doing. She didn’t put you on a horse that rears, or bolts for no reason. She put you on a horse that’s just a little green. Green + green do = black and blue. BUT when you’re under decent instruction there’s nothing wrong with still learning on a green horse. The level of mistakes you usually make just shouldn’t be more than the greenie’s sense of humor. And to be clear, that fall WAS your mistake, not the horse’s. You didn’t ask for the canter correctly, and then you lost your stirrup because your leg wasn’t in the right place. That’s ok, we all make mistakes. Now you know you what you did wrong and can go from there.

I think the biggest issue here, is that you don’t seem to trust your trainer. I mean I see two scenarios: 1) Your trainer put you on a dangerous horse. 2) Your trainer put you on a green horse within your ability level. Like I said, it sounds to me like this situation is #2. The issue is, that you don’t have any trust in your trainer and feel like you’re in situation #1 and that distrust is an issue itself. If that’s the case, maybe look for another trainer. Whether she did really put you on a dangerous horse or she didn’t, this doesn’t sound like a good relationship. If you’re more comfortable riding dead broke lesson horses that’s your prerogative but I think you’ll learn more and learn faster riding more challenging horses when you can.

[mpsbarnmanager]

This makes me so mad. Lesson horses exist to help beginner riders learn balance and aids. If they cant take a joke, they should not be lesson horses. Some trainers use the above as an excuse to get someone to PAY THEM to put miles on green horses so they can them sell them, sometimes to the same students that paid to train them. Makes sense to the trainer. Not so much for the studen . I see it myself. I don’t agree with it but it isn’t my barn. Most kids think they are getting some special privilege to “get” to ride the green horses. Well played, trainer.

[ExpialidociousOTTB]

I don’t think there’s anything wrong with using “green” horses for lessons - but I do think there’s a difference between green and unforgiving. Yes, you lost your stirrup, but imo that shouldn’t be so offensive as to get you dumped in the dirt. Imo, this horse doesn’t sound ready to be teaching lessons to riders that might make mistakes that may offend the horse.

[Linny]

The horse I’ve been leasing is a sale horse that my trainer took in, partly for her lesson program. Horse is QH cross, quite young and green but safe and sane. She gets quick and discombobulated at the canter and bending is hit or miss, but if the rider makes a mistake she just does nothing. Snow sliding off the roof in a dome where you can hear AND see it? No problem. Hawk bombing the pigeons in the rafters of the arena? No problem.
Trainer has used her to teach some of her “post beginner” students some lessons on how to install the buttons for balance and suppling. Beginners are happy doing walk trot on her because she so comfy.
At some point learning to teach a green horse is part of a good program but it should be a conscious decision by rider and trainer. If the rider isn’t confident the horse needs to be green but forgiving. It’s easy to feel confident when you always ride the safest/easiest/sanest schoolie. If the greener one makes you uncomfortable tell your trainer.
OP, sounds like trainer is just integrating horse in to the program, not choosing rider(s) wo can or will teach him. That isn’t fair to either students or the horse.

[SillyHorse]

@mpsbarnmanager

This makes me so mad. Lesson horses exist to help beginner riders learn balance and aids. If they cant take a joke, they should not be lesson horses. Some trainers use the above as an excuse to get someone to PAY THEM to put miles on green horses so they can them sell them, sometimes to the same students that paid to train them. Makes sense to the trainer. Not so much for the studen . I see it myself. I don’t agree with it but it isn’t my barn. Most kids think they are getting some special privilege to “get” to ride the green horses. Well played, trainer.

This. Why should I (or anyone) pay to help train someone else’s horse?

[ClassyJumper]

@SillyHorse

This. Why should I (or anyone) pay to help train someone else’s horse?

I see it differently… I see it as getting instruction on how to train/work with a young horse so when you go out and get that OTTB/young warmblood/etc. You already know WTF you are doing. I think it is valuable to make these mistakes on someone else’s horse vs. your own.

How are you going to ever become a better horseman riding a push button lesson horse as an experienced rider?

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

@mpsbarnmanager

This makes me so mad. Lesson horses exist to help beginner riders learn balance and aids. If they cant take a joke, they should not be lesson horses. Some trainers use the above as an excuse to get someone to PAY THEM to put miles on green horses so they can them sell them, sometimes to the same students that paid to train them. Makes sense to the trainer. Not so much for the studen . I see it myself. I don’t agree with it but it isn’t my barn. Most kids think they are getting some special privilege to “get” to ride the green horses. Well played, trainer.

This. 100%. Also, for a horse who is green, consistency is key. Having multiple riders on the horse in a lesson program, especially beginner riders who will inevitably give confusing signals, will only fry the horse’s mind. It’s much different (worse) than having a greener rider on a greener horse that the rider owns and leases. Yes, sometimes intermediate and advanced riders in a program will ride greener horses for a trainer, but in my experience, trainers usually limit the number of riders on a greener horse, until the horse has some miles (and not charge people to be training/exercising a horse that needs it). An ethical trainer will be careful to match the right riders with the green horse (for example, a very steady, unemotional rider on a reactive horse), versus assuring the rider that getting dumped is an inevitable and necessary part of the learning experience. That’s only fair to the horse as well as the riders.

[Scribbler]

@Mother of Arabians

So recently I’ve been taking lessons away from my usual barn with switching disciplines. I’ve been riding one horse very similar to my own there and this last time the trainer had me ride the four year old greenie who is also a rescue and I don’t think is totally trained, which I was fine with doing. As we get going and got cantering I gave the normal canter cue and he starts flipping his head and crow hopping. The trainer proceeds to tell me I’m not giving the cue just right for him. We finally fix the problem and after cantering at the end I lost my stirrup which freaked the horse out so I got off balance and he freaked out even more and I ended up getting dumped pretty bad.
Apparently this has happened to multiple people on this horse of not being perfect especially if they’re learning and getting dumped. The trainer then tells me she likes to have students ride this horse because it helps them with bad habits and that if they get dumped by this horse it’s the riders fault. I’m sorry but in my opinion shouldn’t a lesson horse help you in a way that if you do something wrong they’re forgiving and the rider doesn’t get hurt? I’m not a huge fan of dead heads either but for green riders this just sounds plain dangerous. I’ve always been taught that GREEN+GREEN=black and blue so why on earth would you use a greenie as a lesson horse? With this happening to me as an experienced rider, putting green riders on a horse like this sounds like a disaster waiting to happen.

what are your guys opinions on this topic? Should green horses like this be used for lessons?

There is green, there is broke, there is safe.

Lots of horses are broke and safe but are what I would call green if I tried to ride them in an arena. They might not be balanced on circles or carry themselves or understand basic lateral work. Honestly these horses can be great for beginners because they dont have a repertoire of more sophisticated cues.

When I read your post, I see that there may have been a mismatch between your skill level and how both you and your coach evaluate you as “experienced.”

It sounds like the rough canter transition didn’t give you problems. What do you mean exactly by crow hopping? When my mare is reluctant to canter she falls on the forehand and “prongs” behind and it feels like she is trying to buck, but from the ground it’s obvious she’s not. The solution is to ride her forward until she has some impulsion. She does or did also sometimes buck but that’s a different thing.

What exactly happened at the end between “lost my stirrup” and “horse freaked out” and “I lost my balance and came off”?

Anyhow I agree you personally shouldn’t ride this horse again and also it points to some holes in your balance and problem solving skills, which is very useful for you to know.

What are your strategies for shutting down a buck, a bolt, a spook?

On the other hand if you feel that this barn is unsafe and unprofessional on multiple levels you should stop taking lessons there.

[fordtraktor]

While I’m not opposed to putting students on horses that require them to be accurate, the result of being not-accurate should be that the horse doesn’t execute the command, not that it dumps you hard in the dirt. IMO the scenario you describe, OP, is totally unacceptable and it seems like the trainer does it regularly to “teach the student a lesson.” I would seek out a different, safer trainer. I would not be surprised if this one employs other dangerous techniques.

[merrygoround]

Said trainer had better make sure her insurance is up to date.

She’s not teaching the student anything, and she is successfully training a rogue.

[SillyHorse]

@ClassyJumper

I see it differently… I see it as getting instruction on how to train/work with a young horse so when you go out and get that OTTB/young warmblood/etc. You already know WTF you are doing. I think it is valuable to make these mistakes on someone else’s horse vs. your own.

How are you going to ever become a better horseman riding a push button lesson horse as an experienced rider?

This

As we get going and got cantering I gave the normal canter cue and he starts flipping his head and crow hopping. The trainer proceeds to tell me I’m not giving the cue just right for him. We finally fix the problem and after cantering at the end I lost my stirrup which freaked the horse out so I got off balance and he freaked out even more and I ended up getting dumped pretty bad.

is not a rider with enough experience to be riding a very green horse. Additionally, there is a vast variety of lesson horses between crowhopping green and push button.

[findeight]

@Mother of Arabians

So recently I’ve been taking lessons away from my usual barn with switching disciplines. I’ve been riding one horse very similar to my own there and this last time the trainer had me ride the four year old greenie who is also a rescue and I don’t think is totally trained, which I was fine with doing. As we get going and got cantering I gave the normal canter cue and he starts flipping his head and crow hopping. The trainer proceeds to tell me I’m not giving the cue just right for him. We finally fix the problem and after cantering at the end I lost my stirrup which freaked the horse out so I got off balance and he freaked out even more and I ended up getting dumped pretty bad.
Apparently this has happened to multiple people on this horse of not being perfect especially if they’re learning and getting dumped. The trainer then tells me she likes to have students ride this horse because it helps them with bad habits and that if they get dumped by this horse it’s the riders fault. I’m sorry but in my opinion shouldn’t a lesson horse help you in a way that if you do something wrong they’re forgiving and the rider doesn’t get hurt? I’m not a huge fan of dead heads either but for green riders this just sounds plain dangerous. I’ve always been taught that GREEN+GREEN=black and blue so why on earth would you use a greenie as a lesson horse? With this happening to me as an experienced rider, putting green riders on a horse like this sounds like a disaster waiting to happen.

what are your guys opinions on this topic? Should green horses like this be used for lessons?

There’s more here then just Green horses in lessons. Good trainers running good programs can match students with appropriate mounts, including less experienced ones, to push the students ability without being willing to watch them get dumped and possibly hurt, probably scared. Find trainer liking to put students on horse because it helps them with bad habits to get dumped and know it’s all their fault to be alarming. is she sadistic or just a bully?

Setting anybody up for a fall, negative impact on confidence and possibly being hurt to “ teach them a lesson” might make this trainer feel good about themselves but tells you who she really is. She’s a bully, you need to listen to her. Putting riders on this horse so they can get dumped does this horse no good at all either, what is it the horse learned by dumping you? What did you learn? How did that help.your riding and confidence? Sounds like your leg is weak as is your overall position and you don’t have enough balance yet to sit a bucking horse after losing an iron…and there’s no reason you should have been put in a position that skill set was needed. What was trainer thinking here, unless she thought you needed to be taught a lesson?

Might add that knowingly putting a rider on a Green horse knowing full well any mistakes will put them in the dirt puts trainer in a precarious position liability wise. If she knows it’s happened before, repeatedly, likely to happen again and even wants the rider to get dumped to “ teach them a lesson” , any injury IS her fault as a teaching Professional. You need to think about that.

The other thing I don’t like here is the idea that there some kind of list of “ cues’ and you picked the wrong one. That’s a BS way of teaching as there is no list and controlling the actions of the horse is a result of collection, impulsion and weight distribution. Even young children are taught these things, greatly simplified of course, but they aren’t taught “ cues” and if an 8 year old has a basic understanding of this, there’s no reason this trainer can’t teach OP properly without putting her into the dirt on an unsuitable horse.

Anyway, Green horses aren’t as big a problem as bad trainers.OP can do better here for a lesson barn, and needs to. With no horse to move, should be uncomplicated to just go elsewhere.

To the original question, depends on the situation. Obviously this was not the right situation.

[Equkelly]

@SillyHorse

This. Why should I (or anyone) pay to help train someone else’s horse?

Ok come on now clearly OP isn’t training anyone’s horse. The trainer is training the horse. If OP is under the trainer’s instruction, I don’t see how that means she’s training the horse. There’s plenty of times where the student and the horse both need miles.

Im kind of shocked at all the replies here from people that think this is unacceptable. I mean riding is a science. I mean it’s like some of you think the equestrian world is just broken up into two groups: people that train horses and then people that ride the trained horses. I’m sorry but riding/training is a balance. Just because you’re not a professional trainer doesn’t mean you shouldn’t be learning things like “how do I teach a horse to pick up a lead”, “how to I start a baby over fences”, “how do I teach a young horse to accept contact.” I mean I know how to do all that stuff because at one point my trainer knew I could handle it and put me on a green horse and talked me through working with them. That was and is still very valuable to me. If I copped an attitude and got all pissy about “why am I paying a trainer to train THEIR horse when I’m the pAyInG cUsToMeR?!?” I wouldn’t be the rider I am.

And secondly, putting a green student on a greener horse doesn’t mean the horse will get “fried”. If the student is alone and is solely attempting to train a green horse all by themselves, yes that would fry a horse. But if it’s just a student that has a somewhat solid seat and is listening to their trainer, it can be really good for a young horse. That’s how the horse learns to gain a sense of humor. I mean how do you guys think horses get “beginner safe”? Do you think a professional rides them for every single ride and then poof! They learned all they need to know and will now be able to be ridden by kids and novices. No way. First the trainer puts miles on the horse, and then maybe a working student or an apprentice, and then maybe some advanced lesson kids, and then maybe some intermediate lesson kids, and then some novice lesson kids. With different riders the horse will gain confidence. They grow more and more confident and gain a sense of humor about bigger mistakes.

A good trainer should know both the horse’s limit and the rider’s limit. Trust your trainer or don’t. But if you don’t then that program isn’t for you. But FWIW, Id never train with anyone that didn’t also educate me on training principles. That just wouldn’t be a type of education I’m interested in.

[AnastasiaBeaverhousen]

I think this trainer is using you and other students as crash test dummies.
I dont know about you but I’m too old to be a crash test dummy .

First off, losing a stirrup and coming off does not imply that you are not a good rider. I’ve seen plenty of experienced riders lose a stirrup and come off.

This horse may not become a good school horse. He may not have the temperament. Schoolies must be able to tolerate and forgive mistakes.

Some horses cant do that and should not be in a lesson program.

It is true that as you increase your skill level you will want to ride more skilled horses that require more of you,; this is how you learn.

But usually, what moving up means is doing more difficult tasks, not necessarily riding more difficult horses.

Unless you plan to become a trainer you should not be riding a difficult horse, nor should you be putting saddle time on a green horse for free.

If you decide to keep riding with this trainer, you don’t have to ride this horse . And don’t let this trainer shame you into it either.

I hope you weren’t hurt, and I hope you wont let it keep you from riding.

[Jackie_Cochran]

This year will be my 50th year of trying to ride seriously.

When I finally found a riding instructor who was willing to help me get back into riding better in spite of my problems with MS I went in with my eyes open. OF COURSE I would be put on horses with some problems, after all my first horse was green (just gelded, three weeks of training under saddle) and I had done all the training since then, I retrained the mare that my parents had let get away with all sorts of objectionable behavior, and I was the first one in the saddle of three horses I had trained myself from a weanling. Crippled I may be, but I knew what I was doing.

The first time I saw my riding teacher she asked me the most advanced thing I had done on horseback. I told her about getting my parent’s ruined mare from balking/bolting, needing a standing martingale and double bridle to being able to ride her with just a snaffle & no martingale in six months. She had been planning to put me up on a 30 year old been there done that beginner’s horse, after talking to me she put my up on a super-reactive sensitive mouthed Arab who had learned that if he ran away he would discourage his rider. This horse and I got along really well and I still have found memories of this marvelous reactive horse.

If a riding teacher puts you up on a green horse it is a vote of confidence in your riding ability. If a riding teacher puts you up on a ruined horse it is a vote of confidence in your riding ability.

Yep, I pay my riding teacher for the chance for me to train her horse, and I get feedback that is invaluable for my riding. Most of my life I’ve read equitation books, and a lot of them point out that when a rider reaches a certain point in their riding, when they become a good rider, then EVERY TIME THEY RIDE THEY ARE TRAINING THAT HORSE, for good or ill.

With my handicaps I have no business riding a young green horse, just broke and all, because my balance and coordination are so horrible. However I do have business riding relatively safe “ruined” horses, and I help train these horses to become better riding/lesson horses, and I pay for just about every ride. If my balance and coordination were better I would EXPECT to be put on young green horses and pay for my ride, how else is someone going to learn how to RIDE a horse instead of just being a passenger on a push-button limousine ride? Personally I am tickled pink, this is the first time in my life that I’ve had an experienced horse trainer critique my training and I have learned a lot.

Feel proud of yourself, even it you decide to go into another riding program (I don’t like falling off either.) At least one horse person with more experience than you has decided it was worth the chance to put you up on a green horse so you could learn more and become a better rider.

There are many riders who never get that far. Congratulations even if you did fall off (which I also did a year or so ago.)

Keep on riding.

[Groom_amp_Taxi]

Good lesson horses are hard to find. In order to keep their income streams going, I have seen lesson programs use unproven horses (at best) and inapproriate/unsuitable horses (at worst). I think the trainers/instructors sometimes (often?) know this is not an ideal scenario but value the income the client provides over the client’s safety on the horse. Short-sighted, but it’s a tough business. Only OP can decide if you want to continue in this situation.

[Rosewatt]

There is definitely a time and a place for teaching students on green horses. I do think that it is a valuable skill to know. However, that is if the rider is ready to learn those things. For someone still learning correct cues and has yet to show consistency in position, then this could turn out to be counter productive. It’s challenging enough to teach someone how to do X and Y on a well-trained horse, but teaching them how to do that on a green horse is even more confusing for the rider. We can often do things in training that might not make sense yet to a rider still learning the ropes. That is why we normally teach how to ride a trained horse and teach how training works, when the basics have been established. If the rider is not already somewhat confident over their abilities, then this can lead to confusion over the proper cues and potentially, if things go badly, a lack of confidence.

OP if you do feel confident in delivering the correct cues and feel that your position will not be compromised with this horse, then this could be a good opportunity. However, if you feel that riding this horse could confuse the things you already know and could make you afraid of riding/ lack confidence, then I would suggest you return to riding a seasoned school horse until you do feel ready.

As we get going and got cantering I gave the normal canter cue and he starts flipping his head and crow hopping. The trainer proceeds to tell me I’m not giving the cue just right for him. We finally fix the problem and after cantering at the end I lost my stirrup which freaked the horse out so I got off balance and he freaked out even more and I ended up getting dumped pretty bad.

Now, I could speculate that from this description, you are not quite ready. First, you gave the cue that you thought was correct, but found out that it wasn’t.
— How was this cue different from the one you’ve applied to other horses? Do you understand why you’ve made that particular change?—
It could be good that this ride has shown your cue to be improper, but it could also be counter productive in your progress if you are now confused over the canter cue… Second, once you attained the canter, you lost your balance. It is much easier for balance to be thrown off by a green horse because they themselves are unbalanced as well, but this does tell me that you may not be balanced enough yourself to ride this horse yet, at least maybe not at the canter. Lastly, I want to ask how YOU feel about this ride because that’s really the question that will lead to the answer. Would you be anxious to ride this horse again or to canter him?

I’ve seen green horses being used as lesson horses often enough. It can be hard to find adequate lesson horses to meet demand, so sometimes instructors work outside of the box. Mainly, I’d argue that temperament should be the most important as a competent trainer should be able to install the basics on potential lesson horses prior to their introduction into the lesson program, but even then the most sane of lesson horses can get sour over multiple riders climbing on in a day. The best lesson programs though have capable horses for student to match their ability and carefully pair riders with a suitable horse, in order to minimize the risk of incidents. If there are other things about this particular barn that are ringing alarm bells for you, then I would suggest looking elsewhere.