I never said that. I’m also not a trainer so that doesn’t even make any sense. I think a lot of people here have some pent up quarantine frustrations and are enjoying some good old COTH recreational outrage and being presumptuous.
Part of being a good trainer is knowing when to challenge a student and when to back off.
I’ve said before in this thread that in order to progress you do have ride more demanding horses. That is the only way you learn.
I believe this trainer was more interested in getting free saddle time for this horse then actually helping her student.
I ve ridden in lessons where if a rider made a really bad mistake and the horse acted out, my instructor got on the horse immediately and splained it to him right then and there.
She was a genius at both finding good lesson horses, and matching horses and riders.
if she had a horse like this, it would not be in a lesson program . She would be training it herself, and not endangering her students and her own reputation. And possibly her livelihood.
Obviously some of you who are a bit cavalier about liability have not been confronted with very angry parents who have very good lawyers.
Okay, so some of you lost a stirrup and you didnt come off. Yay you. You want a medal?
Equkelly- Someday you are going to make some lawyer very happy and put his kids through college.
You also need some empathy training. I hope you dont get it the hard way.
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It doesn’t matter what OP tells the instructor. Saying experienced etc.
Just as a horse can sum up a rider by the time they sit in the saddle, so can an instructor. This OP had had more than one lesson at this new barn with this instructor. The instructor should know more than the student of what they are capable of.
A great instructor can see this in one stride while talking to other people about something else with their back turned.
My hubby found this out asking my instructor a question. He turned around told him that was happening because he had done such and such and if he did this and that instead it would correct it.
Hubby was in shock because he wasn’t even watching him.
Another time hubby, who is quite experienced on his horses, was put on a school horse I have been riding and ridden by kids. This showed that hubby was kicking every stride.
My instructor turned to me and said I am not going to ask him to canter and I agreed.
By the second half of the lesson Ben had worked out to ignore hubby’s leg. Hubby had not learned to keep his leg still in the same amount of time.
So what does that tell you about the horses he is riding at home?
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Jesus. For the last time I’m not a trainer. I’m beginning to think everyone has a reading comprehension problem.
But I actually do agree with you for the most part. You do need to ride more challenging horses if you want to move up. And yes good trainers will know when you’re ready and when you’re not. I personally just disagree that this trainer was being negligent and getting “free saddle time.” I don’t think that just because a trainer is benefiting from “free saddle time” that doesn’t mean the students learning and safety is automatically compromised. It’s very possible both parties can benefit.
I mean if OP came here and was like yea this was like my 3rd time riding a horse and my trainer put me on this really green horse, then yea I’d have a problem with that. But from my perspective OP said she’s experienced and I’m inclined to believe that, OP also said she was fine with riding the greenie at first and that it was going fine initially. According to OP the horse was crow hopping because she lost her stirrup and that’s how she fell off. I mean come on. That just sounds like an accident that happens. This isn’t a bolter, the horse didn’t rear, the horse didn’t take off rodeo bucking. It was some crow hopping for Christs sake.
Trainers should absolutely challenge their students and to me it sounds like that’s what was going on. Sometimes when that happens the students will make mistakes and yes even fall off. That’s just part of learning. You weren’t there and I wasn’t there so neither of us can say for sure but based on OP’s account, that’s where my guess is.
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I respect that.
But I interpret the OPs post a little differently than you.
We can agree to disagree.
I just find your indifference to her pain and injuries which were very serious to be callous and a little off-putting.
Yes, riding is a dangerous sport and you have to accept that you may incur injuries some major and possibly life threatening or life ending.
But that doesn’t mean you deliberately put a rider in harm’s way.
If this trainer wanted to help the OP if she had a tendency to lose her stirrups, she could have put her on a lunge line with a safe horse and had her work on her balance and building an independent seat.
Or had her do some work with no stirrups on a lesson horse who wouldnt be offended if the OP slipped or hit the horse in the mouth by grabbing on the reins.
Im not sure why you think I implied or stated that you were a trainer.
I only doubt the wisdom of putting a young rider on your 3 year old horse because you thought she could handle it. I’m glad nothing happened but if you think about it, “I thought it would be okay.” is not really a valid legal defense.
And even more importantly, I am certain that if the almost intermediate rider had come off and incurred a phase 2 concussion and a back injury, the BO and the child s parents would not agree with you that
"Its her own fault for coming off, and getting hurt will teach her a lesson. "
I will say that we dont know from the OP if this horse hurt any body else, but the trainers business model sucks. You really wont be in business long if you injure or maim your clients.
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See but I’m not seeming ANYWHERE that OP had a “tendency” to lose her stirrups. I think a lot of people here are just filling in gaps in this story for maximum outrage.
She lost a stirrup on this ride, sure. But I don’t remember reading anywhere that OP is a beginner rider that is working on keeping her heels down at the canter and not losing her stirrups. I mean if that’s the case, then yea the trainer should not have put OP on the horse. But that’s not what OP said. People here have even pointed out that good riders with decent seats can lose a stirrup too. Mistakes happen, everyone has an off day. We have no reason to think that OP typically loses her stirrups at the canter just because it happened in this lesson.
This is why I think everyone is being presumptuous and just picturing OP as a beginner that was set up to fail because the trainer was “lazy”, “careless”, “reckless”, and “incompetent” as this whole thread assumes.
And I’m absolutely not indifferent to OP’s suffering. Falling sucks. I’ve been in bad wrecks. It’s not fun and I get it’s scary. But when I do get in a wreck, I recognize that 99.99% of the time. It’s my fault, not my trainer’s, and not my horse’s. And tbh, I don’t think enough riders have that mentality when they really should. It doesn’t mean I think OP deserved to get hospitalized. I even said we all make mistakes and that’s just part of learning and that’s OK. But if you’re going to go through the pain of falling off, and the embarrassment, and the hospital bills, and the anxiety of that first ride back, you should at least get something out of it. You should at least reflect a little on why you fell off and what went wrong and how to fix it and what to work on. Does that mean that setting up unsuspecting lesson kids to fall off horses they have no business riding is a good way to teach? No, obviously not. I’ve never seen someone do that and I personally doubt OP’s trainer is doing that.
Obviously a trainer should not put a kid in harms way to teach them a lesson. I never said that. So you can stop trying to make that point because I already said I agree. Putting a kid on a horse that’s a little challenging with the expectation that they should be able handle it is perfectly normal and not “deliberately putting them in harms way.”
And FWIW, when that kid got on my 3YO her parents were there and they were fine with it. And I know them and they know my horse is saint but they also are smart enough to realize that these are horses and can still be unpredictable. AND this kid in particular, I think very highly of because every time she does fall off her own horse she is the first one to say “that was my fault I should’ve done xyz” even though IMO, her horse can be a brat. But this kid never gets mad, never blames it on the wind, or horses out in the pasture, or her horse, or her trainer. So if my 3YO, had bucked this kid off because the kid started bouncing in her back… I wouldn’t have to point out that she made a mistake, she’d already know she did which is why I felt comfortable with her getting on my baby. That’s the attitude you need to have if you want to be a good horse person and rider, and that’s sadly missing in a lot of people. And my 3YO is seriously the quietest 3YO in the world so normally I’d agree that putting an intermediate kid on a baby warmblood would be dumb. But she’s a special case. I’ve been riding my whole life and riding greenies/ problem horses/ starting babies since I was a teenager. This is the quietest baby I’ve ever worked with. She’s a weirdo.
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Because of all the comments Im seeing I just wanted to say that I don’t have a tendency of losing stirrups and I’m not even sure how it happened this time. I also do have a stable lower leg and good seat (which I’ve developed from my own horse that I trained and flipped from being a problem horse). And for the record the stirrup loss reaction was way more than crow hopping.
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You certainly have the right to your opinion.
I disagree with a lot of your logic and your conclusions.
But I don’t say you are wrong. I say I disagree.
I wasn’t there and we only have the OPs side.
RE The stirrup thing…
Many posters have commented on the fact that she lost her stirrup.
I dont remember in my posts where I stated or implied that she was a beginner and that she had a tendency to lose her stirrups.
I said that IF the trainer thought the OP had a problem with it, that she should not put her on a green horse that was not tolerate of mistakes.
You can learn to stick on a nasty determined bucker , or a dirty stopper by doing it over and over. Being a seat of the pants kind of rider.
I’m too old to be a crash test dummy. I prefer to work at obtaining a secure, independent seat by proven methods that will lower my risk of injury. Just saying
re Your 3 yr old.
You dont have to defend yourself to me. It’s your horse. I m just questioning your judgement in doing so.
Re Lesrning to Ride
Out views on learning to ride are very different.
I do like to offer suggestions to posters if they ask and I think I can be of some help.
I disagree with the sink or swim method of teaching riding. I think it leads to fearful riders who learn to hide it because they are afraid of being shamed or humiliated by their trainer.
And there are some riders who dont want to school the unruly lessons horses when they get of line.
That shouldn’t make them an object of scorn or derision.
Re: your statement about riders and attitude.
Um, the whole purpose of taking lessons from a trainer is so they you can learn from their mistakes.
If I am understanding your post correctly,
in your example you said.
( Paraphrasing here)
If the horse bucks the rider off because the rider bounced on her back , its the riders fault and if she’s a good rider she’ll understand that without you having to tell her. Because she’s a good rider.
So,
Trainer: So why did you come off Saintly Sadie?
Student : I bounced on her back, Ma am. It’s my fault.
Trainer: Right. Now get back on and dont bounce again.
Yeah, No, I think I’ll pass thanks.
And now off to bed where I should have been long ago instead of paying you the compliment of rational opposition because I’m pretty sure that you are going to repudiate everything I just wrote. But it does have its amusing side.
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See this is what I’ve been saying all along and you people jumped down my throat. OP isnt a beginner and has a good seat. She’s not learning to canter and losing her stirrup ever time she rides. The trainer probably had no reason to suspect she’d lose her stirrup and that she would’ve gotten herself bucked off. She wasn’t put on a dAnGeRoUs horse to train it or to punish her for her mistakes. She just got put on a challenging horse and unfortunately had an off day and made some mistakes. We’ve all been there.
OP, we all make mistakes. Anyone of us can have an off day and lose a stirrup. It happens. Sometimes nerves play a role and you grip with your knees or your leg gets tired and your foot comes out of the stirrup. It sounds like this was a horse within your ability and you just had an off day. But I personally don’t think you should discourage you from riding challenging horses. And I definitely don’t think you were put on this horse to train it, or so you’d intentionally get bucked off to make you learn. It sounds like an accident and those just happen.
I think you should take some time to regain your confidence and then really work on fixing those bad habits/ whatever it was that caused you to lose your stirrup. But if you don’t trust this trainer then it’s not a good fit. If you seriously think she had you on this horse because she was too lazy to train it herself, then you need to find a new program. I don’t think that’s what’s going on, but if you do, leave. You need to be able to trust your trainer and have confidence that when they put you on a green horse that means it’s a horse you can ride and learn off of.
Ok, at first, I was thinking not a big deal… advanced riders get put on greenies, and it’s an opportunity to learn how to deal with that. If you’ve had a serious injury and the horse seems to dump multiple people, that’s time to not use that particular horse for anyone that can’t stay on him. I don’t mean your skill level either, just pure stickability that some riders have, and most don’t. If a horse gets agitated and looks like a pro rodeo bronc, well, that’s hard to stick. Every horse can act up now and then, but when you have one dumping multiple advanced riders, then it’s time for a pro to ride it.
We can also say you have a reading comprehensive problem.
Nowhere did the OP say the horse started crow hopping from losing a stirrup. First the horse flipped its head and crow hopped from the canter aide applied. The horse then freaked out and then freaked out more with the loss of the stirrup. Which the OP has since said was a lot more than crow hopping.
This is supposed to be a lesson horse, not a youngster that the OP has bought to train.
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MoA, I hear you. As EquKelly said, plain old crow hopping is no problem, and it sounds like you sorted that part out. But the explosion later, after you’d cantered a bit sounds scary as hell.
And if, as you say, this horse has dumped a number of students, then yes, this horse should not be in that lesson string, and I would think after your fall especially, the trainer would see that.
What was it that you liked about this trainer before the fall?
and when you said “poor students” are crash test dummies, did you mean economic or unsuspecting?
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A lesson horse shouldn’t fly off the handle from a mis-applied aid. Sure, they are flight animals and stuff happens but when the trainer indicates that it’s happened before and that others also fell off, I’d question the judgement of the trainer.
I have spent most of my riding life riding horses I don’t own. As a kid, I was a decent rider who learned to stick because once it was clear that my parents weren’t going to buy me a horse, I got to ride the challenges and the stoppers and the quirky ones. Once the fancy OTTB that I’d schooled for 3 months was sold to become a junior hunter, I was no longer needed to ride him. I was on to the next one but it was understood that was who I was. I chose it.
That said, none of the barns where I rode would tolerate a horse that regularly ditched their riders. Either the horse would get a thorough vetting, significant training or he’d be furloughed. A trainer friend of mine bought a horse for her program only to find that he’d bolt. After 2 incidents, he was out of the program. One of her clients who likes a project took him an and rode him often and learned all his triggers over about a year and he was able to be used for certain riders, with total disclosure of his triggers. The OP indicates that this horse had gotten several riders off and that should be enough.
Because I’ve ridden at several barns in my area and because of my job, I know most of the barns in my area that do lessons. I don’t know of any barn that would keep a horse in it’s string that had multiple incidents a week. It’s possible to teach your advanced students how to train a greener horse without putting them at serious risk. Green doesn’t have to mean dangerous and a dangerous horses isn’t always green. Students can be challenged while mitigating risk.
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I rode lots of green lesson horses, but they were reserved for the more advanced riders, never someone who wasn’t ready or able to handle them. And we rode in our regular group lesson on the regular lesson horses, if we were riding a greenie that was a free ride for us and we rode it in another group lesson which we didn’t pay for. It was a great way for kids like me who couldn’t afford extra lessons to get more saddle time and lessons. Everyone benefitted.
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The injuries change things for me. I would avoid this barn going forward.
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Green horses-when used appropriately in a lesson program-can provide important lessons to intermediate and experienced riders. It’s when trainers overface their students or use beginner/intermediate students for “training rides” on their greenies that it becomes a problem. I had a trainer in my teens who used students who had no right to train any equine (aka myself and the other barn rats) as the sole source of “training” for the green horses she brought into the lesson program. It was irresponsible to both the students and the horses. It could have been dangerous too-but when you’re younger and your trainer asks you to hop on the new prospect it feels like the greatest compliment.
OP, from your first post you state that you are an experienced rider and knew about the challenges with this horse. To me it sounds like your trainer felt comfortable putting you on that horse because of those two statements. I don’t bring that up to blame you for getting injured, instead to point out that this was likely not a situation of intentional overfacing on your trainer’s part. It sounds like you (and the horse as well) had a bad day.
Of course I’m doing a lot of assuming here, but you know your situation best. Whether or not you choose to ride with that trainer again is up to you. If you don’t think that you can trust their judgement or their ability to keep you safe in your lessons, then you should probably switch to a different trainer if possible.
I’m very sorry that you were seriously hurt. I hope that you heal up and are back in the saddle soon!
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Years ago, the wonderful barn I rode at almost always had one greenie in the lesson program. Usually it was an OTTB. That horse was for the more advanced students. The trainer felt that a student on a limited budget might buy a horse like this as a first horse, and having one in the lesson program would help the students be better prepared.
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Bowing down to this post. Spot on
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Your trainer / instructor is YOUR advocate. Schooling or training a greenie should not involve a student knowing that the horse is not THAT forgiving. Yes. Riding quirky or green horses can be invaluable. But making a client / student be a crash test dummy on a known unreliable horse is negligence. Trainers / pros should ride volatile greenies. Trainers / pros should only advocate for their students to learn in a safe environment. And yes I know horses are unpredictable… but there is unpredictable and then there is precedent… I am so grateful that in the past 10 years of progressing from beginner to jumping 3 ‘. My trainer never hung me out to dry. What a fustercluck.
edited to add. You teach / train a student by taking away their stirrups for a month. Or having them ride grids with their eyes closed and their hands outstretched. You don’t put them on known buckers who cannot take a swinging stirrup.
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Hahahah, Enjoytheride, I really like you. I agree with you on most things including this, I really do. I just laughed out loud though because when I was 12 and walk trotting my parents let a trainer talk them into buying me a green 5yr old TB mare. She was only 15.1 and I’m in my bathtub not my couch so it’s ok to share this right?! 🤣🤣🤣 We had many battles and many blue ribbons and a lifetime of majikal memories. I still have her at 27 yrs old. Now, as a barn owner, I’m the first person to say Hell no, that’s a terrible idea. For everyone else. 🤪🦄
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